Jean Senft's Book "Triumph on Ice: The New World of Figure skating"

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by overedge, Dec 14, 2010.

  1. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Sorry if this has already been posted, but I just heard about this a few days ago.

    http://www.amazon.ca/Triumph-Ice-World-Figure-Skating/dp/1553656571

    I know some people here think she is a Canadian homer who cheated just as badly as the people she tried to blow the whistle on....but I'm sure that others will be interested in what she has to say about the new judging system and about her experiences in the sport.
  2. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    I just got it today from the local library....saw it by chance. Beautiful photos of many elite skaters and not the least bit biased. It was a quick read and I enjoyed it.
  3. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I see it is already out in Canada but is released in the US March 1, 2011.

    It is like she was saying "everyone is so corrupt and Canadians have no chance because of the corruption so no matter how the Canadians skate I will place them very highly and maybe number one" LOL LOL
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2010
  4. Gerard

    Gerard New Member

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    Evan's victory over Evgeni in Vancouver was not just the result of a great delivery it was the result of solid training and strategic planning. Jean is showing very well in the book, how, element after element, Evan was able to nibble at Evgeni's points lead and how, in the end, he was able to overtake him - this kind of approach would not have been possible under the old 6.0 system!!!

    Strategy has now a profound impact on both training and choreography - one needs to define very carefully what to do, how, and where in the program - and the competition is very, very though!

    We have indeed a <<New World of Figure Skating>> and it is a better world. Anyone having any doubts about that??? Go back to old tapes and see how elements compare <<then>> and <<now>> - if the technical <<now>> is better, what then promoted the change and is it not the course to follow?
  5. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady New Member

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    I received an advance copy of this book and enjoyed reading it very much. The photos are beautiful.

    One thing that no one has mentioned here. This book explains the new judging system and the way in which programs are constructed in order to gain points. It provides simple explanations of the judging system, levels, grades of execution, etc., and it does so in simple, easy-to-understand terminology. The focus is on this past season&#8217;s champions, and celebrating their accomplishments.

    This is not an apology or justification for events which happened in the past. Anyone looking for a rehash of 1998, is not going to find it in this book.

    The photos are beautiful. Simply stunning. The book is a joy to look at and would make a wonderful gift for skating fan friends.
  6. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Yay for math and strategy. :rolleyes:

    I am now not interested in this "Plushenko sucks -Lysacek is the best" book
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
  7. Allen

    Allen New Member

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    I think I am going to check it out, mostly out of curiosity. I have always found Senft and interesting figure, so I'm curious to see what she has to say about the new system.

    I know a lot of people hate the new system, but I love where skating has gone technically. I guess my questions is, would we have every known that 6.0 skating was less superior techinically without the new system? I probably would have just kept on enjoying skating as it was.
  8. Beefcake

    Beefcake Guest

    what is this "local library" you speak of? :p
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Congrats: You win the "retarded post of the month" award.

    Saying Lysacek won because he very cleverly built his program to maximise points (he had the highest levels and a lot of jumps placed in the second half, including all of the combinations) is equivalent to saying "Plushenko sucks - Lysacek is the best?"
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  10. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    I hear that was going to be the actual title, until the publisher talked her out of it. ;)
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  11. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean 2002? Isn't that when everything blew up?
  12. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    Stupid publisher.

    I've only recently had the chance to compare Lysacek's and Plushenko's LPs and I'm surprised it was as close as it was. Lysacek's spins are faster, better centered and his footwork is generally better and his jump landings were a lot better. Lysacek has one iffy landing that was still better than several of Plushenko's landings. I'm in awe that Plushenko could land some of those jumps at all considering his horrible air position but rescuing a bad jump isn't the same as landing a good jump. (nb I've never been a Lysacek fan)

    Overall I'll agree that Plushenko is the better jumper but he didn't deliver on the night. He took a hot mess of a 6.0 program to a CoP competition and a skater who understood and worked with the format actually being used deservedly beat him. Plushenko should have been thrilled with the silver instead of getting in a snit.
  13. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    For Senft it blew up in 1998.... She taped another judge trying to make a deal about pre-arranging the Nagano ice dance results - from guess what country! and ended up in more trouble than the judge who was offering her a deal...

    (nb provocative interpretation of events designed to draw out other interpretations)
  14. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Wow. I knew there was some hoopla about Nagano ice dance judging but didn't know the details. I'll have to look that one up. I had just barely started watching skating at that time.

    Oh yeah, that was the stuff about Yuri what's-his-name.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
  15. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    The public library in Vancouver BC has "newly acquired" this book and I put in a request, so should get it in a few months at the longest (it has to go through cataloging first).

    So if you live in Canada you should be able to get it from your library - at least if you live in a big city.
  16. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I feel like I win this from you every month!!!

    I like Plushenko's program so much better because he tried to keep the quad trend in the Olympics going! Kulik and Yagudin and himself 2006. Lysacek was happy about ending the quad trend at the Olympics and if that makes him smart and strategic and clever and I'll take stupid, outdated 6.0 thinking! I guess I am interested if she says it is good or bad for the sport that Lysacek didn't do a quad.
  17. Allen

    Allen New Member

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    So, Plushenko should have won because of the inclusion of 1 jump? I think it's great to push for the quad, but the rest of that program was really lacking in content as far as components are concerned. And by the by, how exactly do you know that Lysacek was "happy" to end the quad trend.
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  18. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I guess I don't know if he was happy but he was certainly proud of his win and made no apologies for it. I don't know. It is not just one jump. It is one jump plus 7 others and steps and spins and stuff. In terms of EVERYTHING a skater has to do I was more impressed with Plushenko.
  19. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    IMO Daisuke should have won :saint:
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  20. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Well, then I guess she decided to play by the same corrupt rules. Because she certainly played her own games, especially where her daughter was concerned. But, then every single federation is complicit, some worse than others, but they all deal.
  21. Gerard

    Gerard New Member

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    Originally posted by caseyedwards: <<it is good or bad for the sport that Lysacek didn't do a quad.>>[/QUOTE]


    It would be great to do a quad!!! But a jump done past the half way mark of the program gets you more points (fair is it not???) - and if you cannot do it past the half way mark, what else can you do to maximize points? That is strategy, it makes for a better competition. It is not <<Yay for math...>> it is <<Yay for a set of measurable criteria>> and <<yay>> for you to appreciate the hard stuff.
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  22. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    Ukraine!:p
  23. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I mean this is why they raised the value of the quad and changed GOE. Triple jumps after the halfway point could turn into quad equivalents and that was not good for existence of the quad --which of course three Olympic champions had and was done for 10 straight world championships.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  24. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    It isn't about thinking that's what happened, it's the fact that the evidence shows that's what actually happened. She voted the order Balkov gave his "opinion" on, and when it didn't turn out the way she wanted, she came forward, and implicated herself with the tapes. To this day I still think it's genius and pretty hilarious that Balkov got her to vote L&A over A&P in the FD, a result that I don't think I've ever heard anyone be able to defend or agree with.

    Let's be honest, if she got the result she was conspiring for (B&K on the podium), she never would have said a word. If she was about exposing cheating, she would have came forward before the games started to prevent it from happening.

    She *should* be completely disgraced in Canadian skating for being a part of what they often claim to be the antithesis to, but whatevs... that's life.
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  25. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Plushenko had good levels in his spins and steps as well, he didnt just do a quad and left the arena, how many times would I read this? Watch his levels first. Lysacek was just better there in those elements. Yes his elements were great but warhorse music beats were on the right and he was on the left. And there is always an SP in competition as well, where Dai should have lead and Lysacek shouldnt have been even close.Does the book say in detail the sp? that both Lysacek and Plushenko were getting massive pcs in(each one in different departments) and if we wanna be openmind Dai should have won overall cause he delivered two great performances apart from the fall on the quad? Lysacek didnt have any call in the axels and Dai had edges call all over. It is not the great strategy and training that Lysacek won(like the others were just sitting on a couch instead of training) it is that the rest didnt deliver. In my opinion of course, it was not a CoP masterpiece a la Buttle at Worlds 2008 program.
  26. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    Kingston Township library.........I have to take it back though:(
  27. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    And now she gets to make some $$ with a book... more life.
  28. Beefcake

    Beefcake Guest

    :lol: My "what's this 'public library' you speak of?" was just poking fun that some of us, especially the young'ns, have never been to a public library. It's a nice old-fashioned institution that's kind've gone the way of milk deliveries.
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  29. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Uh, no, the evidence does not show that. Unless you choose to interpret it that way.
  30. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady New Member

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    This is NOT what happened but I'm unable to obtain the exact details of what did happen, other than both Senft and Balkov were suspended, but I am absolutely certain that L&A were not part of the deal. Posters have conveniently twisted the facts to make Senft look as bad as possible, however Mrs. Senft appealed to the Court of Arbitration for sport and her appeal was upheld by the Court and she was exonerated. This little factoid seems to have escaped your retelling of events

    Jean Senft was given the Order of Canada (Canada's highest honour) by the Governor General of Canada because of her courage in speaking out.
  31. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Not quite. The collection of my city's public library system must number in the billions. And I see plenty of young people and children in the library.
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  32. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. In a fair World Daisuke would have won by over 10 points.
  33. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all that.
  34. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Amazon.ca has a function where you can search the entire book but only a few pages can be read. If you search like Plushenko or Takahashi you get part of the sentence but can't access the page.
  35. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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    If this was Facebook, I would "Like" this post so hard. :cheer:
  36. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    The Lysecek/Plushenko issue is almost the exact situation that happened with Kwan/Lipinski, but with different results. Yes, Lipinski did the tripple/tripple and Kwan did not. However, eveything Kwan did, she did better than Lipinski. Kwan's jumps were higher, better rotated, her spins, spirals, skating were better. So, based on that result, it's understandable that Plushenko's quad would have been expected to be the deciding factor.

    But, then we have the deals: If country X gets this GM, then country Y gets, this GM, and country Z gets.... We can pretend it doesn't happen, but it does. What goes on in the judges rooms is dealing, negotiating. Even before the event, the lobbying starts. Judges who are not even on panels (and don't belong there) go into the judges rooms.
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  37. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Why?

    O-
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  38. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady New Member

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    Some overly obsessed friends with too much time on their hands have scored the 1998 programs under CoP and Michelle wins by a wide margin. Every time.
  39. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    If Bourne & Kraatz had been awarded a medal in Nagano, would she have spoken out at all though?
  40. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I haven't done that :lol:. I thought, in '98, that Kwan should have won. I've never thought that one element should decide the outcome. Kwan (in my opinion) outskated Lipinski, with the exception of one jump combination. But, you are right, that CoP is different. Of course there is always the "unnamed human factor" ;).

    Doubtful.