Janet Lynn on COP and the decline of figure skating

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Maofan7, Nov 21, 2011.

  1. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Just curious, but where exactly is this magical 6.0 land where skaters and their coaches had absolutely no idea what they were being judged on, where cyborg judges were like Tommy the deaf dumb and blind boy incapable of giving feedback, where Kwan and Lipinski were at a huge disadvantage because without some publicly published slip of paper with a liitle e on it, they were clueless that they flutzed? :lol:

    Iirc cop was kicking around the corridors for years, ignored by tbtb, until the crooks needed an easy PR fix to their now solid reputation for fixed results. Now skating fans can point to a piece of paper with a -0.2 next to a poorly executed 3f and kid themselves that they now have super secret disclosed information that was denied to all during 6.0. :cool: cop has saved the world!
     
  2. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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  3. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Skaters had 26 another years under 6.0 in which to skate programs like this. How many did?

    Skaters had plenty of opportunity to skate like this, too, for almost 35 years.
     
  5. nubka

    nubka Well-Known Member

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    The speed was impressive, and his spins, too, but the rest seemed kind of wooden to me, especially his arms. :cold:
     
  6. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for posting that!!! And thanks to gkelly for posting Stephanie Zhang's program.

    Two skaters I'm embarrassed to say I'd never heard of!

    But I honestly don't know why we can't see programs like Sano's under COP. He'd be killing it under SS, TR and on GOE.
     
  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Because now if a skater does flutz or underrotates they are going to get it made obvious to them. Before was there really the incentive to actually fix the problem when say Lipinski still gets 5.8 on the technical mark for a program with a flutz? Her SP at the 98 Olympics certainly did with 3 judges. And 97 Worlds SP there were 4 judges who did the same. At 97 Worlds only two judges gave 5.5. So for those other judges where was the deduction identified? According to those judges her technical mark should have been 6.0 without a deduction because under that system a wrong edge take off could incur anywhere between a 0.1-0.3.

    6.0 was a placement system. Regardless of the issues a skater has, it still does not tell a skater honestly what the problems are with their performance and what they need to do to fix them.

    Oh but having a system that probably encouraged skaters to flutz probably means that it doesn't give skating fans anything to bitch about when they complain about skaters who flutz still winning events.
     
  8. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I might have to pay up just to rep that, Aussie Willy!!
     
  9. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, skating these days are truly off-the-shelf.
     
  10. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Really, I'm the only person in the world who remembers Lipinski publicly apologizing for fluting in 1997? My coworker even pinned the news article to the bulletin board! Lol

    Your posts confuses me thought. Everybody knows that the rules were changed to crack down on edges. This isn't even a cop vs 6.0 thing. Cohen and asada and others were flutzing their way to gold under cop for years! But seriously, you think Tara wasn't working to fix that flutz to make those 5.8s 5.9s like Kwan and irina were getting because she didnt have protocol sheets? Seriously?

    Remember when Hughes changed her lp to only include one flutz and then robin said she hid it as best she could? But oh no, there were no cop protocol sheets! How did robin know sarah flutzed and the judges didn't like it? She must be an alien!
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  11. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Lipinski and Hughes couldn't have helped got the message about flutzing because there was so much publicity about it. But for a young skater in the lower levels, it might be the only message that they are going to get from a technical panel or judge that they are doing a flutz and they will be penalised for it.

    But what is wrong with having a system that does break it down and analysis it? Systems should constantly strive to improve and you can't justify keeping one that really was incredibly flawed in many ways. There are still flaws under IJS, but it is a much better system in so many ways.
     
  12. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Who said there was anything wrong with it? It just gets annoying to hear people pretend cop invented all of this stuff that existed for decades before it.
     
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone is saying that. But some people do appreciate that under IJS it is more obvious where deductions are being applied. And for many of those developing skaters it is really appreciated which didn't used to happen.
     
  14. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    There are positives and negatives of each system. My feeling is that Janet is lamenting the loss of artistry as a result of the new judging system and I agree with her on that. Too many programs appear the same under the COP, while in the old system the skaters had more freedom to interpret the music without worrying about how many points it would garner. Anton Sikharulidze had said in the past that it would be very difficult for him and Elena to skate under the COP. I am not against an analytical approach, but I do feel that the COP does not reward the program as a whole; it rewards parts of it. Still it has some positives. I do miss the artistry though. There are only a handful of skaters like Yu na Kim and Mao Asada that can be artistic in both systems. I particularly miss the artistry in pairs skating.
     
  15. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    ITA with berthesghost on this one. While I don't think edge calls and under-rotations were punished as severely as they are today, one can't help but look at Sarah Hughes and see many cases where she outjumped her competitors on paper and still finised lower. The judges were not blind to her faults. She eeked out a world bronze medal by finishing 4th in both the sp and lp, and lucked out by a completely indecisive panel in SLC to be in 4th after the short, where most judges had her fifth or lower. She then lucked out again when her competitors tanked in their LPs. Even so, Cohen, Kwan, and Slutskaya stole ordinals from her even with their mistakes. So, to say that flutes and under-rotations were going unnoticed is simply not true.
     
  16. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Why would the sport have to be removed from the Olympics if 6.0 were kept? Figure skating is the most popular event in the Winter Olympics. It would never be removed based on the traditional scoring system. The judging controversy of 2002 gave Speedy the excuse to do what he had wanted to do all along--make figure skating more objective and quantitative--kind of like...speed skating. That said, I don't think the sport needs to go back to 6.0. I do think that the system needs to be changed to allow more freedom in the free skate and to stop rewarding things like catchfoots, pretzel spins and labored footwork.
     
  17. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Well you said
    "Car is winning medals with 1988 jump content". and you are wrong :p
     
  18. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    True. By '88 women were landing 3z and 3x. I should have said '84 :p
     
  19. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Glad to see you agree that you were wrong :p

    Also which lady landed a triple axel in 1988?
     
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  20. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Ito at 1988 Aichi Prefectural Championships, NHK and Japanese Nationals. ;)

    Carry on :watch:
     
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  21. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    By saying 6.0 was about deductions means that whilst a high base mark rewarded skaters, it really didn't give feedback on what skaters did well.

    A skater like Lucinda Ruh, whilst she had beautiful spins, musicality and presentation, was never going to be up there (I think the highest she finished at worlds was 12) because her jumps were just not up to the same standard. Under IJS her spins would be recognised and given the credit they deserved.
     
  22. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Not buying it.

    I actually think Lambiel's spins were much better under 6.0 that COP, which seems to really reward difficult positions over speed or centering, and certainly placement with choreo. Irina's endless homage to the beilman was what cop produced. Lambiel still had to master that 3x and 4t or he'd get nowhere. It's not like he won worlds with the same skating he was doing in 02. He didn't come in 4th at his first euros with no 3x because 6.0 ignored spins and didn't recognize their merit. Like all skaters from beginning to end, he won by becoming as close to a complete package as possible. Jokes about Kostner aside, no lady is going to medal at worlds this year with nothing harder than a 3s and 3t and all level 4 spins.
     
  23. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes, but I would say that was an effect of not rewarding the spins as much as the jumps in the base marks rather than about subtracting anything from a higher starting point. Deducting = subtracting.
     
  24. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Level 4's on her spins and +3 GOE for those spins probably wouldn't do Ruh full justice, given the substantial difference between her best spins and those of skaters such as Czisny, Nagasu, and Zhang, who are some of the best spinners to have competed under the new system.
     
  25. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes, but I would say that was an effect of not rewarding the spins as much as the jumps in the base marks rather than about subtracting anything from a higher starting point. Deducting = subtracting.

    Not sure I'd agree in general, although it did take him a while to adjust to the higher levels because he was injured and skipping the GP during the first few years of IJS.

    Yes, at first. Then TPTB decided that overusing one feature wasn't what they wanted so they adjusted the rules accordingly. I'm sure there will be still more adjustments to come.

    I suspect that basic skating skills had at least as much to do with it as spins. That's certainly what stood out to me at the time.

    Skating clean when others faltered also helped.

    Yup. Always true under any system.

    Time will tell. I doubt 3S and 3T will do it -- even Lepisto and Kostner had one harder triple when they medaled in 2010 and 2011. Even three different triples won't do it if others are doing four, five or six, plus repeats, and skating clean with good skills. But trying harder triples and losing credit to falls and downgrades won't get it done either. So the question is how many ladies will be able to bring it all when it counts. If at least three do so, then that's what it'll take to medal.
     
  26. topaz

    topaz Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  27. topaz

    topaz Well-Known Member

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    You are so right. For example, the best female spinner competiting today is Alissa C.

    Alissa consistently scores 4 to 6 pts more with her +GOE on her spins than the other skaters.

    For example, at SA Carolina K scored the following on her spins.

    Caro's base value for all spins: 9.20 w/GOE= total score of 10.70

    Alissa's base value for all spins: 11.40 w/GOE=total score of 16.52

    Also, Alissa's spins werent' at their best at SA too.
     
  28. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    So consistently better spins across the whole program is worth approximately one triple jump per program.
     
  29. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I love how people think that spins count for so much and great spinners are finally getting their due. Then how come Miki Ando and Yuna Kim often outscored Czisny and Nagasu in spins?

    I love Ruh, but she lacked the difficult triples and the ones she did land were usually >> and two-footed. I think her placements would have been about the same in this system.

    What was great about Ruh's spinning was that, in addition to being difficult, they were GORGEOUS, fast, and fit the music perfectly. In this system, the quality of the position and the setting to the music don't really matter- just check off the boxes to get your levels.
     
  30. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    There is indeed the possibility that Lucinda Ruh's >> and >'s on her triple attempts would have negated any +3's she would have earned on spins. So yes, I agree with the theory that her placements would have likely been the same in either system.

    I've always been of the opinion that the Grade of Executions are actually more manipulative than Component Scores, especially in the long programs where there are 13/14 elements. Ando/Kim probably should be getting 0's and 1's at the most if Czisny and Nagasu get 2's and 3's. The higher level is fine if the features are met - but don't "artificially" give high GOE just because the skater achieved a high level...