It's so tough to win back to back OGM!

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is really difficult, but in fact, not so many skaters tried it.

    Alexei Urmanov failed it. Mishkutienok&Dmitriev failed it. Evgeny Plushenko failed it. Viktor Petrenko. Who else ?
     
  2. zotza

    zotza allergic to brainless skaters

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    Valova/Vasiliev came 2nd in 1988, losing to Gordeeva/Grinkov like M/D did.
     
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  3. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    They were mentioned in the OP as those who came close.

    Interesting that both pairs lost to G&G. V&V did not skate that well in the 88 Oly, but they could not have beaten the absolutely perfect skate by G&G.
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    V&V had no chance against a clean G&G by 88. G&G had to make a major error like the 88 Worlds for an inspired V&V to capatilize.
     
  5. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    Okay 1988 calgary olympics ladies.

    figures

    1. Ivanova (only footage I've seen wasn't impressive but who am I to say?)
    2. Thomas (she won the final two figures after a bumpy start, footage looks great)
    3. Witt (maybe gifted? the footage is unimpressive)
    4. Manley
    5. Trenary (pulled up after bad first figure, very nice loop figure)
    6. Leistner
    6. Kadavy (started strong but folded under pressure)
    -
    10. Ito (not bad for her at the time)


    SP

    1. Witt (not her best performance but the judges wouldn't be denied)
    2. Thomas (very good though some spins were slow)
    3. Manley (def. gifted - her combo wasn't so hard and her spins travelled too much)
    4. Ito (would win after 1990 but 3rd would be right for standards of the time)
    5. Kadavy (probably underrated but withdrew with flu before lp)
    6. Trenary
    9. Leistner (fell on a spin...)

    LP
    1. Manley (best match between jumping ambition and developed presentation)
    2. Witt (too much posing)
    3. Ito (would win by later judging standards but I'd still have her after Manley)
    4. Thomas (kind of a gift but it didn't matter overall in terms of standings)
    5. Trenary (pretty good debut overall, but the sport was headed in a different direction)
    6. Leistner (hot mess of a program but I have a soft spot for her)
    7. Konrashova (object of Peggy Fleming girl crush)

    Final standings
    1. Witt
    2. Manley
    3. Thomas
    4. Trenary
    5. Ito
     
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  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I often feel sorry for Jill since it feels like she was caught in between two eras and wasnt able to totally shine in either one. Then again she did still get a World title which Kadavy who I consider an even more talented skater didnt get, so maybe I shouldnt feel too badly for her.
     
  7. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    ^I didn't know that about Thomas winning two of the three figures. She had good edges!

    I remember in the overview that ABC did about ladies' figures in '88, that Witt had a strong first figure and maybe won that but faded, yet held onto 3d.

    Did Ivanova win any of the 3 figures?

    I think Leistner underperformed in figures. She was higher at '87 Worlds.
     
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  8. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    And some skaters were lucky, they only had to wait two years to try again versus the normal four year wait.
     
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  9. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Witt was so overmarked in figures. I am sure it was political. There is no way her figures were regularly better than Leistner or Trenary who she regularly beat, usually by multiple placings, in figures.
     
  11. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    It was more than just Trenary, there was a whole generation of ladies who'd spent years training for the sport as they knew it - figures and a few different triples (toe loop, salchow and a third triple usually a loop or flip) who were whacked in the knees (figuratively) by the ISU's decision to junk figures and the simultaneous pressure to develop a full set of five triples when most of them were too old to realistically try.

    Jill was the poster girl but there was also Cadavy, Holly Cook, Jerri Campbell, Patricia Neske and a lot more. I just hope that if any of them ever meet Sonia Bianchetti in person they'd throw a drink in her face.... (I certainly would).

    Ironically within a few years the ISU had ladies with shocking lacks in their basic skills (and who desperately needed the skills that figures could have given them) like Bonaly and Baiul on the podiums.
     
  12. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Bonaly was lacking in edges, but Baiul had excellent basic skating skills; she flowed on the ice. She was one of the few ladies that did the lutz from the outside edge, and with speed. How can you put the two in the same brackett?:rolleyes:

    BTW more recently there have been skaters that were caught between the 6.0 and COP system. The most glaring example- Michelle Kwan!
     
  13. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    She had excellent basics (and huuuge potential) but she also had some very big gaps as well.

    Baiul won olympic gold without knowing what a bracket turn was! She saw one for the first time sometime later watching another skater ( Boitano I think ) doing some practice figures.

    IIRC she never did counter or rocker turns either in her brief amateur career. An OGM with one turn (a three?) The mind boggles....

    As wonky as some of Bonaly's technique was she did understand the idea of different kinds of turns (she just needed a lot more practice at them).
     
  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Mafke. Oksana Baiul may have a very good glide. But she really needed figures, because her only turn was a 3-turn (no rocker, no counter, no bracket...), which is really poor for an Olympic champion.
     
  15. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Brian Boitano, Torvill and Dean, and Katarina Witt tried for a 3rd OGM. They all tried it in '94, when they only had to wait 2 years.
     
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  16. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure she couldn't do them, or that she just didn't know what they were by name?

    When you skate a lot sometimes you just learn these moves intuitively. It is natural to try turns in different directions and on different edges.

    Besides, being 16 in '94, I can't believe she never trained figures in her entire life. She would have been 10 in 1988.
     
  17. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Witt had to wait 4 years between Olympics and she didn't compete at all the years in between. Same with Boitano. T/D's last gold was in 1984 and didn't compete at the Olympics again until 1994, ten years later, only pro competitions in between.

    Most said they did it for fun in 94, I don't why the didn't try for 92 unless they were all ready to retire by then and changed their minds.
     
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  18. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't know if she knew or didn't know how to do all the turns. But in her Olympic programs, there was nothing alse than 3-turns, that's what I meant. ;)
    I'm also really surprised considering she was coached by Viktor Petrenko's coach, who was good at figures. So, Oksana probably saw him doing figures.
     
  19. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    According to Brian Boitano (IIRC) she didn't recognize bracket turns when he was practicing them once (post 94).

    Given her age and training practices in the USSR (and successor states) there's no reason to believe she ever trained figures. I'm not saying she couldn't hve learned the other turns and other skills she lacked in some other training regimen (and she wouldn't thrive in CoP without them) but it seems that no one in the ISU at the time really foresaw the possibility of skaters without basic skills and/or iffy technique getting on the podium when they dumped figures.... Kind of mind boggling when you think of it.
     
  20. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I could never understand why the ISU couldn't wait until the fall of 2006 to make the IJS the official judging system.
     
  21. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Only Boitano and T&D believed they had a shot at winning. Witt knew she was too technically behind the other ladies at that time.
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Witt knew a bronze would be a miracle and require a splatfest from many of the contenders. I remember the British bookies had the order at the time of chances to win: Baiul, Bonaly, Kerrigan, Chen, Sato, Chouinard, Harding, Szewcenko, Witt.
     
  23. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    They couldn't just introduce it in the Olympic year. They did the right thing in testing it a few years before the Olympics, so they could work out the kinks, or at least the major flaws. Plus it gave the skaters a chance to get used to the system. It would have been too much to ask of anyone to suddenly learn an entirely different judging system in less than one year.
     
  24. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Right, and while she skated her best at 1993 German Nats, Katarina Witt didn't even win it.
     
  25. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    If they'd waited until Fall of 2006 (2006-2007 Season), they would have been past the olympics and starting on the new quad.
     
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  26. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I don't think they wanted to wait until the 2010 Olympics. They wanted to change the judging system because of the negative exposure in 2002. They had to do it in the 2006 Olympics, but it needed preparation for a few years prior to the Olympics season.
     
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    On another note I dont know how others felt but I never thought Boitano had much chance in 94, certainly not of the gold atleast. He had not won any of his amateur only events that season leading into the Olympics. He even lost at U.S Nationals to Scott Davis despite skating well. Brian had 1 mistake and lost to Davis who had 2. He was the best pro skater at the time but he wasnt even attempting all the triples (no triple loop in his program), he never did the triple axel-triple toe which the top guys were all doing by then, he hadnt done a clean long program all year, and artistically his programs (one which was 6 years old) werent being the best received either. Plus he was 30 years old, he would have been wise to stay pro where he was dominant. Petrenko I understood coming back, he had a real shot, much more than Brian ever did, despite that Brian was clearly the better pro competitive skater.
     
  28. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I have to go back to how I felt at that time. I actually thought Boitano had the best chance of the three (BB, Browning, Viktor) because he was so consistent with the jumps. He did 3A-2t consistently as a pro. The 3R was the only triple he was not doing, but Browning was not doing the 3Lz, Petrenko often faltered on the 3flip. BB's loss to Davis at the USN was shocking, but I saw it as an aberration. I thought he had a good chance of winning at least a bronze (and quite possibly better) because artistically none of the younger guys came close, and Stojko was the only one who could land the 4-3. Petrenko was doing 3A-3t, but he had always been inconsistent. On paper VP had a great shot. I thought the consistency would put Boitano in the running for a gold, along with VP and KB.
     
  29. muffinbiscuit

    muffinbiscuit Member

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    I think the judging of the SP was poor. The top two should have been Ito and Kadavy. Politics!
     
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  30. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if Michelle is a good example, as I would think that her hip injury would have caused problems, if not ending her career, even if the judging system had not changed.
     
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