Italian skating/skaters news

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by pingu, May 30, 2011.

  1. Diane Mars

    Diane Mars Active Member

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    I agree, @Zemgirl , but it was mentioned that she was with him, at least once (but I remember another one with Conconi, but as it's not precise in my head, I can't develop), on a parking, with Schwazer AND Ferrari, that's why I posted this.
     
  2. loulou

    loulou Let It Snow

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    Would it matter how it is in Italy?
    Kostner doesn't live in Italy, and didn't at the time of the facts.


    Can you link a source that says, suggests or implies "Schwazer threw Kostner under the bus"?

    Apparently, this doping investigations involves many people.

    I've read multiple reports that all agree in saying the investigators considered Schwazer uncooperative, because he only admitted what he couldn't deny, but never added new peices to the puzzle, which, in the educated opinions of the investigators, he could have done.

    Also, if Kostner lied to anti-doping inspectors, then telling to the investigators would be the decent thing to do.
    What you call "protecting Kostner", would have implied lying to justice.
     
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  3. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    My understanding was that she tagged along for a meeting with Ferrari once, but didn't know who it was.

    It's possible that she didn't know or didn't want to think through the implications of what he was doing. If it was a handful of incidents during the length of their relationship, I can understand how she might not have put it all together - the most obvious thing was when he had her lie to the doping inspectors, and I believe they caught up to him soon afterward and that was the positive test. The rest might not have been enough to do more than ask him what he was doing, and I am sure he had answers prepared for that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  4. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Can't you read?
     
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  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    All of the news articles agree on two things:

    1. He asked her to lie for him, and in a pressure situation,
    2. He told investigators that he asked her to lie for him.

    He had been dodging investigators regularly and knew he was a target: their appearance was not unexpected, and it would have been easy for him to set it up so that she didn't know anything: where he had gone, why he had gone, and when he was coming back, so that she could have spoken the truth when they came to the door. He manipulated her feelings for him, assuming that even in anger, she would not give up to the investigators, while putting her competitive career and future earnings in jeopardy by making her complicit.

    If that's not throwing your partner under the bus, I'm not sure what is. Perhaps you can argue otherwise.
     
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  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia Club comp. season is here!

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    Thank you, pingu! Her translation is quoted here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/ind...ating-skaters-news.79001/page-18#post-4338019

    Congratulations to Roberta, 2014 Ondrej Nepela Trophy GOLD medalist! :) She came back from 6th in SP to win FS (103.30, 150.83 total), landing 5 triples.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
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  7. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Roberta has so improved. Congrats to her!
     
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  8. Josh78

    Josh78 Well-Known Member

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    Happy for Roberta..she really capitalized on almost all the other main skaters getting slammed for underrotations and downgrades...one of the few "clean" sheets in the competition..this could be a turning point in her career!
     
  9. loulou

    loulou Let It Snow

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    Read what?



    When you said "Schwazer threw Kostner under the bus", I thought you referred to what Schwazer told the investigators, because we were discussing whether Schwazer words were trust worthy as a source.

    From this post, I take that when you said "Schwazer threw Kostner under the bus", you were instead referring to the way Schwazer behaved in his and Kostner's relationship.

    Do you have a source that says "Schwazer manipulated Kostner's feelings"?

    During her last hearing, Kostner and her lawyer were reported saying that she lied to anti-doping investigators "in good faith, to protect her privacy and Schwazer's privacy".

    Kostner was never reported talking about a "pressure situation" or "manipulated feelings".

    The hearings were the most appropriate situation to say she acted under pression or emotional manipulation, if she felt that was the case.
    But Kostner never mentioned such thing: she was reported saying she acted to protect privacy.
     
  10. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I clearly meant both: #2 is about what he told investigators.

    She said he asked her to lie for him when the investigators showed up at the door of her home -- a pressure situation -- and that she was angry at him for doing so, but decided to protect him. She also said they later argued about it.

    If putting his partner on the spot without prior agreement, when he was putting both of their athletic careers and privacy in jeopardy and and asking her to choose between protecting him based on their personal relationship/her feelings for him and thinking of the long-term consequences and ethics isn't manipulative, you tell me what it is.

    All of the interviews and have been published in this thread for you to read on your own, and your insistence on "proof" at every turn is simply tiresome.
     
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  11. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:
     
  12. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I guess the "proof" is supposed to take the form of extremely literal statements to investigators and must be reported verbatim by the media. I mean, Kostner gave testimony for four hours, only a fraction of which has been reported, but if she didn't say "Alex manipulated me and put me in an impossible situation and later threw me under the bus", then it can't possibly be inferred from what has been reported that he did just that.
     
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  13. Sk8swan

    Sk8swan Well-Known Member

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    My oh my... I can't believe you're still dissecting this... It's just newspapers quotes!!! Do you really believe you'll manage to know THE truth by comparing, analyzing every single word you read in the press??? :yikes:
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
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  14. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Is carolina living with anyone now? I wonder if they will choose to make an example of her.
     
  15. pingu

    pingu Well-Known Member

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    Thanks :)

    Now, onto real stuff, Guignard/Fabbri told me they are really happy with their performance in Bratislava :)
    Testa/Csolley happy as well (some problems on levels and lifts but they can be easily fixed as it's just the beginning of the season) also because of their very first Grand Prix. Yeah, I know, they are not skating for Italy but it's pointless to create a thread just for these two sentences and they train full time in Italy anyway :p
     
  16. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Of course loulou believes that! That's why he/she is making so many requests for proof! Because obviously newspapers are never wrong! :rofl: In fact, it seems that loulou would use information from newspaper as a proof at court. Because newspapers said so! :rollin:
     
  17. loulou

    loulou Let It Snow

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    You're mistaken: I've never asked for "proof", I've asked for sources.

    If you present your "turns" as opinions, that's fine.
    But if you present them as more than that, then it's natural for people to ask what your sources are.


    Unless there's a source saying otherwise, it is your assumption that Schwazer expected inspectors at Kostner's house that night.

    Schwazer might have thought he could keep dodging anti-doping inspections or at least not expect inspectors to have figured out his schemes at the time.

    Also, having Kostner lie to inspectors further endangered Schwazer's secrets and position, why wouldn't he try to prevent that if he could?


    Unless you have a source, those are also your assumptions.

    We don't know how Schwazer's situation was practically playing out: we don't know what was easy or difficult for him to do, we don't know what his options were.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  18. loulou

    loulou Let It Snow

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    Unless you have a source, those are your assumptions.

    If I have done nothing wrong, and I suspect nothing is wrong with my boyfriend, and he askes me to say he's not in, and I decide to do so to protect privacy, in good faith - all of which implies also a clean conscience - why would I feel pressured?

    And how would it be possible for someone I love, that I believe leads a healthy and clean life with me, that I never suspected of hiding secrets, to manipulate me into putting in jeopardy my career, in the twenty seconds from the bell ring to the moment I answer the door?

    Also, I think if your assumptions were confirmed, if Kostner was indeed manipulated and pressured into protecting Schwazer, her legal position would suffer.

    Which, perhaps, is why Kostner told investigators a different story, and you have no source matching your assumptions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  19. loulou

    loulou Let It Snow

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    Unless you have a source, your words, that "Schwazer threw Kostner under the bus with investigators" are assumptions.

    All reports I came across, say investigators considered Schwazer uncooperative, because he only confirmed what he couldn't deny, but never added a piece of the puzzle to an investigation that involves many people.

    Going by that, we have no reason to think that Schwazer ever threw Kostner, or anyone else, under the bus with investigators.

    Also, I think telling the truth to investigators doesn't mean "throwing under the bus", and lying to justice doesn't mean "protecting", don't you too?
     
  20. loulou

    loulou Let It Snow

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    Media can't report hours of testimonies, but it is their job to report the essence of them.

    Reporting "I protected privacy in good faith" is one thing, reporting "I protected my boyfriend under pressure and emotional manipulation" is quite another.
    I have a feeling Kostner's lawyers would back me up on this.
     
  21. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Is there a smilie that would picture "loosing will to live after loulou's posts"? This will have to do... :scream:
    Loulou, please, don't become a lawyer otherwise you may die from starvation.
     
  22. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    When someone you care for has health issues and you think they are neglecting them, you do everything in your power to take the patient to the doctor, not their medical records (secretly). Or the least you can do is not to choose a doping doctor to show the patient's blood tests to for a second opinion. What was that man thinking, wasn't he aware of the possible consequences?

    I hate to see Carolina involved in this mess with lies and doping doctors.
     
  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    The answer is the same: the links in this thread. I'm sure you can read them for yourself.

    To quote you, "If you present your "turns" as opinions, that's fine. But if you present them as more than that". I never said he expected inspectors at Kostner's house that night. I said that he knew that inspectors could show up anytime, anywhere. That's all in the doping sections of federation requirements -- you might want to read the ISU's documents: they are good sources -- and the documents that athletes sign, including the ones he signed over and over misrepresenting where he'd be, something he admitted in the sources above. There have never been any sources that describe how his doping regime would make him either delusional or invisible.


    If the lie he admitted that he asked her to tell endangered his secrets and positions, it would have been his own fault for asking her. According to both of their reported accounts from sources he asked her to lie; she did not volunteer to lie for him. As it happens, she did not endanger Schwazer's secrets and position, because she didn't go to the authorities, tell her best friend who leaked it to authorities, or do anything for them to find out about it until he told them that she had lied for him.

    We know:
    1. He was subject to the doping policy of his Federation.
    2. He knew that she was subject to the doping policy of the ISU.
    3. He was doping.
    4. He signed paperwork to get funding and be a member of his federation to say he'd abide by the doping policy and give them a truthful record of his whereabouts, so that they could subject him to random testing, like every other athlete subject to the policy.
    5. He systematically lied about where he was over a period of time.

    So between the later of starting to dope and signing the paperwork with his federation, during the entire time he lied about his whereabouts to evade the inspectors, and the time they showed up at Kostner's house, he had ample time to figure out how he could respond if they showed up without implicating her or asking her to lie.

    Are you a world class athlete who is subject to a doping policy that your boyfriend asked you to violate by lying for him?

    Um, because she found out in those twenty seconds what he was hiding from, and had to make a snap decision that involved dire consequences for both of their futures on the spot, and the choice was integrity and her own athletic future with the explosion of publicity that would dog them or his immediate future and the chance that the story wouldn't break?

    You do know that in courts of all kinds, not only is evidence weighed, but also conclusions drawn based on it? Or maybe you don't.
     
  24. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    How long did Kostner stay with her boy friend after lying for him?
     
  25. Sk8swan

    Sk8swan Well-Known Member

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  26. pingu

    pingu Well-Known Member

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    It's not our business.
     
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  27. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    well, if that is not our business, then knowing they were living together is not either.
     
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  28. jiggs

    jiggs Well-Known Member

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    As far as I understand, they were not living together. Kostner lived and trained in Oberstdorf, Schwazer lived and trained in Italy. They were in a long-distance relationship.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
  29. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    OMG, is there any news actually coming from Italy, that is not about the past relationship of Kostner and the Ex? This saga seems to be going in circles. I love Kostner, but please, no Kostner in this thread for a few weeks!!!!!!! :drama:
     
  30. pingu

    pingu Well-Known Member

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    Uhm...ice dance national competition happening in two weeks? I can already predict someone at Forum ice rink will scold me, it always happens no matter whether I am there for a competition, a gala or just to say hi to skaters. I guess the ladies at the reception think I am a :sekret:
    Apart from that, I'd like to know some infos about Marchei/Hotarek, I hope I'll be able to know something soon.
     
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