It is the off season! 2004 US National Ladies

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by UGG, Jul 10, 2013.

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If Sasha had not Sasha Splat, who would have won?

  1. Michelle

    38.5%
  2. Sasha

    61.5%
  1. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I feel like the judges were pulling for Sasha, especially considering the fact that one judge gave her a 6.0 with her flawed LP. Dick and Peggy as well.

    Michelle however delivered an amazing program but did not have the difficulty Sasha had. But I don't think Sasha could have ever pulled off such an emotional performance the way Michelle did.

    I think the deciding factor would be Sasha skating before Michelle, and therefore Michelle would have won the LP.

    What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  2. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    IMO, by 2004, Michelle was gunning to tie the record, and the USFSA wouldn't deny it to her.
     
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Sasha could have won with a perfectly executed program.
     
  4. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Sasha. She was amazing and, had she not had "Sasha splat," she could have had more than the one US title she has. The girl had something special that can't be taught.
     
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  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Remember that the doors were open wide for Sasha after Michelle barely held on to the 2A in the SP.
     
  6. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Judges were definitely wanting to give it to Sasha. But then with the way Michelle skated, it's hard to deny her the championship (no matter how Sasha skated).
     
  7. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    Michelle
     
  8. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

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    Sasha splat.
     
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Michelle Kwan's LP was unbeatable, IMO. She was so fantastic that night.
    Even a clean Sasha Cohen couldn't have such confidence on the landing of each jump.
     
  10. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Sasha's landings were pretty confident in the SP.
     
  11. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I always felt Sasha would have won every competition in the 2003-2006 quad had she skated cleanly, minus the 2005 Worlds. Also minus the 2006 Olympics had Arakawa or Slutskaya skated perfectly with their full content, but with what the others put out she would have won there too.

    Thus on this poll I voted Sasha, even though Michelle skated outstandingly that night so probably would have been close.
     
  12. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I believe the judges were ready to fully reward Sasha by this point in Michelle's career. Unfortunately for Sasha, clean skates in the LP never came to fruition for her and she needed to be clean to compete against Kwan's consistent steadiness and stronger technique. Remember, at this stage Kwan was skipping the international GP series and only competing at Nationals and Worlds and I think the judges knew Kwan was headed toward the close of her eligible career. Sasha was being heralded on national tv constantly as "THE most talented skater in the world" and she offered a newer, fresher face to US ladies skating and was supposed to fill Kwan's skates upon her retirement, although this never really materialized. Nevertheless, Cohen was a pretty steady podium finisher and helped the US maintain 3 spots at Worlds for 5 consecutive years (2003-2007) based on her previous year finishes.
     
  13. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Sad to Sasha is remembered as a failure to alot of people since she didnt dominate and win the big titles like she was supposed to do. I wonder if she should have continued past 2006. Then again the technical level of womens skating was being taken to new heights by Asada, Kim, and Ando, and Asada and Kim had great presntation too, so if she couldnt even beat old Kwan, old Slutskaya, and journeyperson Shizuka for big titles, she probably wasnt ever going to win any against that group.
     
  14. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Well I think she would have won nationals between 2007-2010 had she continued to skate at the same ability she was in 2006. I mean she was 2nd in the short program at 2010 nats with a 3 year absense. So it is possible she could have been a 5 time US champ.

    If she could not win worlds in 2006 I don't see how she could have ever won a world championship 2007 or beyond. I think internationally she could have been seen a dark horse for bronze between 2007-2010.
     
  15. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    If Sasha skates lights out (ie two perfect programs), she would probably have been able to top Ando in 2007. 2008 wouldn't have been too hard for her to win, considering that Asada, Kim, and Kostner all had mistakes in both portions of the competition (if Asada's UR counts). She wouldn't have beaten Kim in 2009 or 2010.

    Regarding 2004, I think the judges gave Sasha the 'preference' (as seen by her high SP scores before Kwan even skated). But Kwan sold the shit out of her LP and skated lights out, so it would have been hard to say. Besides, Nationals and MK are always a big lovefest.

    Another question out of curiosity, how did you think the ladies would have stacked up behind the top 2? I certainly didn't expect Amber Corwin to place 4th. I was thinking Kirk, McDonough, Liang, then Corwin, though perhaps with McDonough's injury she would have been predicted to place lower (as she did). IMO, 2004 was the big year for Bebe to make the big jump up - if she skated well, she would have been 4th, which would have given her much more leverage going into the following year. It's too bad that didn't materialize then.
     
  16. DannyCurry

    DannyCurry Active Member

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    What is a "not Sasha splat"? Is it a clean Sasha with 6 triples or 7 triples?

    I can see a clean Swan Lake with 7 triples win over a clean Tosca with 6 triples (yes, even with the butchered Wagner's version), but if both programs were clean with 6 triples each, I agree it would depend on the skating order. Being a MK fan should not prevent me from acknowledging that Michelle's Tosca was quite empty, choreography wise.

    Who cares anyway. The fact is Sasha did not perform well, and Michelle was wonderful. Her most emotional national title IMO, 1998 a close second.
     
  17. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Sasha would have never won the 2007 Worlds. Ando skated cleanly with super hard triple-triples. Sasha would be so far behind in not only content but jump GOE, she would never make up the gap with everything else. Plus the judges were excited by this new generation and would have had no interest in an old generation skater be that Cohen, Kwan, Slutskaya, or whoever was foolish enough to stick around once Kim and Asada turned senior. Sasha's PCS from 2005-2006 were barely higher than someone like Ando in 2007, and no higher than what people like Kim and Asada were already getting, and as she had already peaked as a skater this wasnt going to suddenly change for aging Sasha who had yet to win a big title.

    2008 Worlds would have been her only chance but she would have had to skate clean given her lesser technical skills, and that wouldnt have happened when she couldnt even deliver cleanly in her physical prime which she would have been past by 2008.

    Regarding 2004 Nationals though yes Sasha skating cleanly wins. Sasha could have won every event from 2003-2006 skating cleanly. Some say she couldnt have won 2003 Worlds over Michelle and even more say she couldnt have won 2005 Worlds over Irina. However I say she could since she was doing a triple lutz-triple toe in 2003 and Michelle wasnt doing any triple-triples, and in 2005 Irina had alot of mistakes even though her long seemed spectacular on the surface it too had built in deductions. Certainly alot more likely for her to win any of those events than any of the post 2006 events, especialy 2007 Worlds.
     
  18. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I can say one thing for sure about Michelle in the LP at 2004 Nationals, she proved that she learned to win when she really wanted to win, as opposed to just wanting to do her best.
     
  19. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Yes I think 2004 could have been a spectacular year for Cohen, and she could have done it. Same thing at worlds that year, however it just wasn't meant to be.
     
  20. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Shrug. Dumping TT for Robin in the 11th hour just threw it all out the window IMO.
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I thought Tarasova had dumped her since she was upset with her work ethic.
     
  22. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    That's my recollection of the story too. I recall hearing more than once that Sasha only wanted to focus on what she did well and didn't focus enough on strengthening her weaknesses or upping the technical ante (she did not attempt triple+triples post-2003).
     
  23. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    No one was touching Kwan that night. Kwan would have edged her out on the artistic mark.
     
  24. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Never was a fan of Cohen's but this was her event to lose, like most from 2002 onwards were. Kwan did skate great but I doubt it would have denied a clean Cohen if the judges were willing to give Cohen 6.0s even with a fall like they did.
     
  25. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    This comment is interesting only since it makes me wonder if you think the USFSA tells U.S judges how to score? If that is the case you must think this would happen regularly at Nationals too, and not just on this occasion. I dont know if this is true but it is possible, especialy seeing some results there were so ridiculous like Weir losing Nationals to Lysacek despite skating way better, and by 0.01. Obvious fix, so it probably happened more than once.
     
  26. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    What a bummer for her to totally dominate most of the season, then come 3rd at the 3 biggest events to 3 different skaters- Suguri at the Grand Prix final, Kwan at Nationals, and Arakawa at Worlds, probably due to her own falls each time.

    2004 and 2006 both could have been Cohen years, and the 2003-2006 quad could have been the Cohen quad. Apparently she didnt want that to be the case though.
     
  27. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Is that what happened? I remember it more as TT dared to criticize her, and momma Cohen was all "oh hell no, nobody puts baby in a corner. we're outie". Oh well.
     
  28. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Cohen should have kissed Tatiana's arse to stay with her, as she was a far better coach for her at that point than Wagner or an old John Nicks. Nicks was still a good coach but had already done as much for her as he could by that point probably, given how long they had been together, and the stage of his career he was at.

    Maybe Sasha was getting fed up and upset she didnt win any of Nationals 2003, Worlds 2003 or Grand Prix final 2004 and that is why she dumped Tarasova to punish her for not winning any of those events.
     
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think it's hard to go by what kind of scores Sasha would have had at Nationals had she skated clean. We can't go by that one judge who gave Sasha a 6.0 because that judge ultimately put Kwan in first. If Sasha skated cleanly and Michelle skated the same way she had at 2004 Nationals, I can see a split decision either way. It would have depended on who was more on fire that night, and Kwan's 2004 Nationals (although not nearly her best choreography) was one of the most aggressive and fiery performances she ever gave. It's telling that this video is still the most watched Kwan video on youtube and for the longest time was the first video to pop up when you just typed "Michelle Kwan" on the youtube search engine. It was also under 6.0 where judges were rewarding the bigger picture a bit more than COP.

    We'll never know how they would have been scored had both skated similarly with the same attack and passion because they never did. The only times they were both "clean" was 2003 Worlds QR where Kwan was first, Sokolova second, and Cohen third. But Cohen improved after that and I think she didn't skate with as much attack as she would have later on in her career. At 2004 Nationals and Worlds SP, Cohen was on fire while Kwan was a bit off (either in one of her jump elements and in presentation at Nationals or with her timing and the shine was sort of lost compared to the previous year). I guess you can argue that 2005 Worlds QR was telling as Kwan skated a clean routine but was edged out by Cohen who was a bit off, but then Worlds 2005 was under COP in which Kwan wasn't as prepared as she should have been for Moscow and it was performed much better at Nationals in terms of timing and musicality when hitting the beats.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
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  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think the judges would have gone with Sasha since at their point they were very closely matched if both skated well, but it was already apparent Sasha was probably their better hope for 2006, especialy with the new judging system coming in. Sasha had just lost the GP final and the judges would have wanted to give her a momentum and confidence booster for Worlds, and start resending the message to the World it was a changing of the guard and the Sasha Cohen era was underway (which it turned out never got going).

    It is very hard to say for certain though. I wouldnt bet alot of money on what the judges would have done either.