ISU MINIMUM SCORE RULE POLL: KEEP OR DUMP

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by haribobo, Jan 23, 2011.

?

ISU MIN SCORE RULE

  1. Keep it!

    46 vote(s)
    34.3%
  2. Dump!

    88 vote(s)
    65.7%
  1. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,554
    IMO this ISU minimum TES score rule is for the birds. Adriana DeSanctis can't go to 4CC because Skate Canada never bothered to send her out this year to get the min score, and now she can't do GP next year, sans SC. I mean, who is this rule helping? Curious what others think though.
  2. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Messages:
    14,081
  3. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    7,139
    Well...to be honest I don't think the skaters who can't rotate a double double jump combination belong at an ISU championship...just my opinion of course. I don't think it should prevent skaters like Adriana from competing, though. Skate Canada just needs to do a better job of sending their skaters out to Senior B Comps perhaps..
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  4. elfenblüte

    elfenblüte New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2008
    Messages:
    420
    Dump!

    Everyone should have the chance to compete at ISU Championships, their technical ability should not care.
    Sometimes i like "obscure" skaters much more than the better skaters, i like their music and choreography!
    I think the minimum score rule will damage the sport in many smaller federations in the future.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  5. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,538
    Dump it, or make the minimum score higher, it's so low now anyway.
  6. Lanna

    Lanna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    8,655
    That's not exactly the issue at hand, and probalby will never be an issue at hand: the requirement is a minimum score, not a minimum jumping qualification.

    And those skaters would've been relegated to early SP groups and never make the FS, so it's not like people who don't want to watch them would be forced to view them in between viewing skaters land quads or 3-3s fall on quads or 3-3 who have higher scoring potential.

    And there's definitely a Yao Bin argument to make about skaters who are the best in their countries but nowhere close to the best in the world being able to compete amongst the best in the world. It's the World Championships, not the "Grand Prix Countries Plus A Couple Others" Championships.

    It's just that now, countries like the USA, JPN, CAN, RUS, etc, who have large fields, have to send out all of their skaters to international events at least once every two years. Just in case one of them has a breakthrough season.
  7. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,784
    I don't see any benefit. I don't see how having skaters from developing federations-or whatever you want to call them-will hurt the major competition. And I don't see why someone who's great (best in his or her nation) should be kept home because s/he wasn't given the opportunity to go out earlier in the season.
  8. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2004
    Messages:
    3,396
    At the very least they should waive the minimum score for 4CCs and Europeans to allow a skater/team to make the score at that event prior to worlds - especially if you have a breakthrough season domestically
    (ie Adriana DeSanctis at Canadians this year)
    or if you were out with injury and unable to compete internationally the last two seasons in order to get the score, despite having done so numerous times in previous seasons
    (ie Elladj Balde!)
    (Canadian championship potential spoilers)
  9. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    7,139
    I understand your point, Lara. There is something to be said about a Yao Bin type of situation...and every federation's top athlete, regardless of jumping ability, should ideally be able to participate.

    I think we all know the reason this rule was implemented by the ISU...to save time and money.
  10. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    Yep, this seems to be the logic behind the majority of the ISU's decisions....:blah:
  11. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,954
    If federations had been better about not sending tremendously unqualified skaters to Worlds this might not ever have been implemented. Skaters with one or two triple jumps don't belong competing at Worlds, and their federations should have instead sent them to Senior B competitions.

    There needs to be more opportunities for skaters to meet minimum qualifying standards, but making sure that entrants to the World Championships are actually competent competitors is a reasonable goal.

    I don't think that Eddie the Eagle was a good standard, and I'm glad that ski jumping put standards in place after that to ensure that they wouldn't again waste time with seriously underqualified entrants.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  12. Lanna

    Lanna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    8,655
    What makes you think they weren't being sent there already? A lot of obscure skaters go to senior B competitions.
  13. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,954
    I'd have to look at the lists again, but there were a number of skaters in singles at Worlds last year who had not competed in a GP or Senior B event last season.
  14. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2004
    Messages:
    3,396
    The problem is though, for countries with a lot of depth across the disciplines (like Canada and the US, who almost exclusively choose teams from nationals results), if someone surprises and has a breakthrough performance but was not previously ranked high enough to compete internationally, they won't have the ISU score. Yet I think it's safe to say that any skater good enough to qualify for US and Canadian championships is more than capable of getting the minimum score.

    The best solution for an American and Canadian standpoint would be to get one of the major summer events recognized as an ISU event.
  15. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,437
    I think Skate Canada should consider having a mini-National GP series like they do in Russia to monitor skaters earlier in the season just in case someone new is identified and can be sent to a late fall B international.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  16. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    28,129
    I feel they should also add a provision for high level skaters who are competing with new partners (i.e Volosozhar/Trankov).
  17. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,277
    Is this just the ISU's way of making Senior Bs more popular? This rule has made these competitions more important than ever before. Strong skating countries are now forced to send out many skaters to internationals that aren't Grand Prixes instead of keeping them at home at local competitions... Poor skating countries are now forced to send their skaters to multiple Sr Bs if they are unable to get the qualifying score in previous attempts.

    I understand wanting to increase participation in Senior Bs, but I just wonder if there are too many are them. The fields can be very thin (or non-existent) at some of these competitions, making them a waste of time and money for foreign participants.
  18. Aceon6

    Aceon6 Get off my lawn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,022
    I think it's just a money maker for the ISU, forcing feds to send folks to the Senior Bs. Each fed should have total freedom in choosing its team.
  19. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,494
    But if they become popular, especially with skaters from countries with deep fields and/or new pair and dance teams, then the fields won't be so thin anymore, will they?
  20. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,448
    I think the minimum qualifying score makes sense. There are only so many spots available at the Championships, so they should not be giving places to skaters who can't achieve even the minimum score. The minimums were really set pretty low and should only keep out the weakest skaters, once federations get their act together about making sure their skaters get sent qualifying international events.

    It is always easy to blame the rules, but if a federation finds themselves with a good skater who still has not posted a qualifying score, they really need to blame themselves (or maybe the skater/coach, if they were given opportunities and did not take advantage of them). They have all known about this rule all season.

    Lots of other sports have qualifying minimums so this really kind of helps bring skating out of the gentleman's club philosophy and into the world of serious sports.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  21. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,494
    I agree on that point -- it's not as if the skaters who have tried and failed to reach the minimums are solid senior-level skaters. If they were, they'd be able to meet the minimums.

    It's more of a problem this year than it will be in the future, because it's supposed to use two year's worth of competition results, but the federations and skaters did not know about it last season in time to maximize the number of skaters sent to senior B events.

    Now they know.

    For small European countries, sending their best skaters to senior Bs is not much hardship.

    For small countries in Asia, Oceania, Africa, it means paying for extra long trips in addition to or instead of the long trip to 4Cs. But the small skating countries probably only have a few skaters capable of meeting the minimums anyway.

    For countries like the US and Canada and Japan who may have >20 age-eligible senior skaters capable of meeting the minimums and deserving a trip to Four Continents, they may not be able to predict a year or two in advance who's going to place high enough to earn a 4Cs slot that year.

    Even if they make sure to send 20 ladies to either junior or senior fall events, what happens if the one who was 21st on the list for fall assignments based on last year's results has a breakthrough season and ends up 3rd at Nationals?

    And of course injuries that take a skater out of the fall season can also mean no trip to 4Cs that year.

    Given the tight time frame between Nationals and 4Cs there may not be time to send that skater to a winter senior B event even if an appropriate one exists. For Worlds there's a little more leeway if there are enough winter B events. This rule will make those events more valuable.
  22. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,698
    I think it isn't a bad idea, since there are too many skaters.

    I wonder if there was another way, because it is really a hassle for the big skating countries.

    I think about ice hockey, where these is A and B world championships. The team(s) that does best in B gets to go to A next year. Countries like US, Canada, Russia will always go to A, since they are so strong hockey nations.

    Another way of thinking of it is to maybe not have minimum score for 4CC or Euros, but only for worlds?
  23. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,954
    As Gkelly suggests, this will certainly be an issue that should prompt more Senior Bs in more parts of the world, and some late fall, early winter Senior Bs would be particularly helpful, either for "breakout" skaters or for returning elite skaters who are coming back from injury.

    I'd be in favor of a much higher qualifying standard option that would let skaters reach back three years (which should cover even severe injuries), and a different mechanism for pairs/dance teams that are new couples who both previously met the standard (or, perhaps a higher standard) with a prior partner.
  24. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    7,864
    Please keep it or we may still have every little rich girl from suburban Washington, DC, skating for unknown countries and making it to the SPs ar Euros or Worlds.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  25. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,554
    This rule doesn't really prevent that, assuming those countries are willing send Susie Suburb out to a B comp sometime during the year. Susie still has to be good enough to make the top 28 cut for the SP anyway...in which case I don't really see the problem. If you're a European skater losing to the US-living national champion of Thailand or Taiwan or Philippines, maybe its time to start mulling over your other career options...
  26. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,352
    Does this also mean that during an Olympic year, if a skater makes the minimum score and earns a country's spot during the Nebelhorn or Olympic qualifier, the country is now either forced to send that same skater or give up their spot unless they had another skater earn the minimum score?
  27. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,494
    Probably. AFAIK the current rules apply only to senior ISU championships, but they might make it also apply to Olympics before 2014.

    Keep in mind that there are limited spots per discipline available at the Olympics and the skill level required to earn one is a lot higher than the skill level required to earn the minimum score. So it wouldn't serve the purpose of keeping out skaters who are unable to do any triple jumps or get credit and non-negative GOE for their non-jump elements. Which means there might not be any incentive to apply this rule to the Olympics.

    If they do apply it, then it would really only keep out "new" or injured/returning skaters who didn't compete internationally at all the previous season or the previous fall, or those who did compete internationally but scored far below their potential.
  28. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,260
    It could also keep out an "2nd skater" (or "3rd skater") from a country that had one or two successful skaters the previous year, but no one else even close to their level (i.e., Georgia could have sent a 2nd lady to the 2010 Olympics, but chose not to. The qualifying score wouldn't have given them a choice).
  29. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,494
    Oh yeah, that is true.
  30. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,520
    What, if anything, is accomplished by requiring a minimum score if there is a Qualifying Round? Less chance of burnout for the judges during the Short Program? I would assume that there are expenses in having two days of Qualifying Rounds that would not be incurred if all the entrants skate in the Short Program.
  31. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Ridiculous situations like this are exactly the reason why the minimum score should be scrapped.

    At the moment it's so low, it's not really stopping anybody from taking part in ISU Championships anyway.

    I am assuming it's going to get raised each season, though, eliminating more and more skaters.

    Add the reduction in the number of skaters competing in SP and FS and we'll end up in a situation where figure skating is alive in a small handful of countries only.

    That's where ISU seems to be going for. That's where the money is so screw everybody else.

    It makes me sick.

    Simply: If both partners achieved the minimum score with previous partners, the new team should get cleared too.

    I mean imagine a situation if there was no international competition between Volosozhar's release date and Worlds.

    A team that is one of the favourites to medal or even win would not be able to compete because of a technicality.
  32. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    Dump!

    IMO this ISU minimum TES score rule was written for judges. I like both strong skaters and "weak" skaters :(
  33. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,867
    I was soooo confused when I read this thread... "Canadian Nationals already happened???" :huh: :rofl: I didn't realize it was a year old. :p
  34. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,385
    In fact, I don't have any idea about that. But if there's a rule, it needs to be applied to everybody :p
  35. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,487
    While I am in favour of it, this rule can be a Catch - 22, particularly for skaters in the Asia / Pacific regions, unlike Europe, they need to travel far greater distances to achieve qualification.

    In order for a skater to meet the international score necessary for entry into championship competition, I am in favour of them gaining that experience via Senior B events.

    In able to meet this standard, monitoring the skater's performance at home in local and national events means sending a skater any association can be confident will meet this standard.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  36. senorita

    senorita New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    Imagine:eek:

    :p
  37. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,448
    It's not just about money. The problem was that the fields at Worlds (esp in singles) had gotten so large that it was difficult and very tiring for the judging panel to get though them all and maintain any kind of consistency or fairness from the first to the last skater. They have used a preliminary qualifying round in various ways to reduce the fields, but I like them less than the qualifying score concept.

    I think the idea of a minimum qualifying score is sound and fundamenatally fair (as long as they don't start arbitrarily waiving it for one skater or another :shuffle:). Lots of other sports use qualifying times or distances for their championships.

    I like danafan's suggestion of applying the qualifying scores only to Worlds (and Olympics, I guess). The problem of the breakthrough performance at Nationals would be solved if the skaters could go to Europeans and 4C, where they'd have a chance to post a qualifying score before Worlds.
  38. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,487
    Great idea.

    I think eventually, Four Continents and Europeans will act as the qualifying event for the World Championships.
  39. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,721
    Not if they're going to grant exceptions...
  40. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,471
    If a country is an ISU member, it should automatically get to send at least one representative to Worlds and to the appropriate "regional" competition (like 4Cs or Euros) without any minimum qualifying score.

    Frankly, I don't care if the representative is actually "some little rich girl from suburban Washington, DC". Most countries are very proud of the achievements of their emigrants, and having the country represented at the event will still bring attention in that country to the sport of skating.

    If someone is so unqualified as to be a danger to other competitors (which IIRC was the case a few years ago with a pair at a JGP event) I am pretty sure the referee or event chair has the ability to disqualify them.