Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Feb 4, 2013.
Is Gosviani for sure Russia's 3rd woman at worlds?
If you can't raise the bridge, lower the river.
Still of the voidy Aussie dancers making the Worlds cut. I hope they can manage the scores at 4CCs.
You're not taking spots away from anyone, you're just insuring that the best skaters in the world get to go
First, there is no reason to believe that the ISU is going to ease up on the number of entrants for its championships. If the ISU allowed Japan to send its top six men to Worlds, it would also set higher minimum scores -- ones that would surely keep out skaters from smaller federations.
Second, the ISU currently determines the number of entries per country at the following year's Worlds, Junior Worlds, Europeans, and Olympics partly on how each federation's skaters place in the pertinent ISU Championship. It's not inconceivable that if Japan could send its top six men, they would all finish toward the top of the heap and keep other federations from gaining second or third entries at next year's Worlds and at the Olympics.
Third, the IOC looks at the number of participating federations when deciding whether to retain a sport or an event. That is why they dropped baseball and softball from the list of Olympic sports. If the ISU's World Championship in, say, Pairs, regularly had no more than eighteen entries from a total five federations, seven entries from one of those federations and only one entry from another, the IOC might well drop the event. If that pattern were repeated in the other disciplines, it might dispense with figure skating completely.
^^ I had the impression that Tony Wheeler's idea had nothing to do with minimum scores. It was all GPF qualifiers and the top 12 from 4CC's and Euro's. That's 30 competitiors no matter what. Where they're from depends on how well they did throughout the season, not on anything in the previous season. It'd make 4 continents matter more too, and politicing at nationals not as dependant. For pairs and dance, I'm sure they could do the GPF qualifiers and top 9 from 4 CC's and Euro's (24 teams). Seems fair to me.
Russian World team hasn't been announced yet. It will be after the Russian Cup.
You are. The number of spots is finite (and the minimum scores get adjusted accordingly).
Yes and that means that since there's only 30 spots and multiple skaters from certain countries, there's less spots from skaters from other countries.
If then GPF skaters got automatic entry to Worlds, then what happens to then overlap of the GPF skaters and their regional championship? This year, there were four Japanese Men and one from Canada. Two of the Japanese Men are going to 4C's. Does that mean the Top 14 skaters from 4C's go, and the Top 13 skaters from Euros go, with one GPF overlap spot for Fernandez?
Under this proposal, I were the Japanese Fed, I would have sent Mura, Oda, and the next Japanese Man in line to 4C's, because all three are likely to make the Top 12 at 4C's, and have seven Men at Worlds. If I were Russia, I'd have sent S/K and two of the other Pairs to Euros, to get six Pairs to Worlds and two other Dance teams with R/T, to get five Dance teams to Worlds.
I mean... this was just a very brief suggestion that would have to be further looked into
I think that the Grand Prix Final qualifiers should automatically be sent to Worlds-- regardless of country and the maximum amount of spots. So you theoretically have six spots taken in each of the disciplines.
I'd have to think of how the entries for 4CC and Euros would be formed to begin with... What if we went with 30 entries for ladies/men in those events-- each country allowed to send three maximum skaters ON TOP of the amount that have qualified for the Final (Japan this year would get seven skaters at Four Continents). The entries could be based on the Seasons Best scores to that point*, and then the final six spots going to countries next in line but do not have a skater qualified yet. If that system was used, the Seasons Best list would have to reflect every ISU event, not just the JGP, GP, and Majors.
*Maybe it could be that the skaters within the Seasons Best represent their countries, but don't necessarily get the spots. IE Jeremy Abbott would be the highest-ranked US skater, but if he finished out of the medals at Nationals, then the USA could send whoever they want to fight for a Worlds spot. It makes Nationals actually worth something still rather than basing all entries off of international competitions (which would obviously put some skaters completely out of the running).
Let's look at Four Continents and use the World Standings instead of Seasons Best (as explained why above). You would have the following skaters/countries competing:
GPFQUAL Daisuke Takahashi
GPFQUAL Yuzuru Hanyu
GPFQUAL Patrick Chan
GPFQUAL Tatsuki Machida
Six extra spots to countries with no skater represented yet:
And you're already done with all the possible countries.. so I'd suggest the three Final spots would go back to the highest ranked in seasons best without three representatives already (again here, it's using World Standing)
So there is your field of 30. Since Four Continents doesn't have as many countries/skaters as Euros, every country ends up getting at least two skaters except Brazil-- more than what the current system is even allowing. I probably should have done Euros, but you get the idea. Countries like Mexico would still have no entries because there are no skaters in the World Standings (but probably would be in the Seasons Best).
Now, for Worlds, those four men listed at the beginning already have their tickets, along with two European men. That means 30 spots are up for grabs (if we are going for the 36 entries, six warm-up groups idea). If you gave the top 12 here a ticket (FOLLOWING the GPF auto qualifiers) as well as the top 12 at Europeans, then you have 30 entries. The system of adding six spots to countries with no entry would be applied here as well.
I know there are some questions/problems.. off the top of my head-- the balance between 4CC/Euros and how a 12th place at one event might not be anywhere near the level at the other. Also, if we are using Seasons Best scores, the question of comparing between competitions comes into play.
In the end, I just think that using both the technical minimum AND the spots earned by skater placement in the previous year is somewhat ridiculous. It's like saying that they are going to try to get the best of the best with those scores but still limit some of the best from having the chance to compete.
PS- I know it's a lot of ideas thrown together and some of them aren't completely expanded upon, but it's a start, right?
SKATERS WHO HAVE REACHED THE SP SCORE BUT STILL NEED THE LP SCORE
Country NAME TES-SP Comp Season
*AUT SCHULZ, Sabrina 27.03 DT 11-12
Sabrina SCHULZ AUT 46.20 Ice Callenge Graz
she had made the Worlds TES FS minimum at Ice Challenge
FWIW, I put up what the start groups would look as of now for men, ladies, and pairs. I'll update after 4CC and other internationals that might switch the Worlds Standings up/add more skaters to Worlds.
It is arguable, expecially considering that some event results might have been affected by the fact that skaters where after minimum TES.
Some skaters probably sacrified their presentation in order to secure their TES, which could have ended up placing them lower than they could have placed. Some skaters may have been too tired in some events because they had been travelling competition to competition until they made the minimum TES, again resulting in a lower placement or in a season preparation challange.
I know this season isn't quite over but let's fast forward to Dance next season- there are a few couples going to worlds this season courtesy of gaining the TES last season, as this "Q mark" is only good for the next season it means some couples who didn't "renew" this season will be out there trying to post the mark with the short dance being the Finn step.
With any luck ISU will wake up and see that all the introduction of the minimum score has done is open up the chance for technical panels to profit. It is known among skaters that deals have been done and this has been highlighted by the number of couples at European Championships with the Q mark who were not able to get anywhere near this at a major competition.
Will this make world championships a better event? Couples who came 20th and 25th last worlds have been unable to buy their way in and there are no couples from China qualified. Will this have any effect on the teams event?
Can couples who don't do Worlds get into Grand Prix event if they don't do worlds but have high rankings?
For both the Olympic team event and World Team Trophy, 4C's results are valid championship results in calculating whether the country qualifies, ten for the Olympic SP/SD and six for WTT. If China is one of the Top 10 teams in the points qualification system, for the Olympic event, they can appoint a team, even if the country doesn't earn at least one spot at Worlds or at the Olympic qualfier, and if or they do qualify, but they team don't make the Olympic TES minimums, which have yet to be defined. Obviously, the strength of their teams in World Standings, which is based on placements throughout the season, will impact whether they are one of those teams, and, if they are, the strength the appointed Dance team in the Olympic Team Event will determine whether they make it into the FS/FD final/how they do there.
Yes. GP spots are also guaranteed to teams in the Top 24 Season's Best list, which includes scores from junior and senior GP's, GPF, 4C's/Euros, as well as Worlds. Same for the Top 24 in World Standings, where the championship points can be from 4C's/Euros or Worlds. The lists are recalculated at the end of the season. Also, at least this year, Jr. Worlds medalists and JGPF champions who turn senior. Top 75 skaters on the SB list can be invited. Then there are host spots, up to three in each discipline, so the Chinese Dancers (and all three Japanese teams) are covered, if their Fed wants to send them to their event.
Just to put it into perspective, Camilla Gjersem has just skated an SP with: 3loop/2toe, 3toe and 2axel. And she was a little short of reaching the minimum score (TES 25.73). Yes she had some slightly negative GOEs and her levels could have been better but you really can't argue that this kind of technical content isn't good enough to warrant competing at Worlds.
It's one thing to want to ensure a competitive standard of skating, it's another to turn ISU Championships into an exclusive club for the select few.
The SP TES minimums as set last year were to ensure that the skaters were capable of delivering the minimum requirements -- low level jumps, L1 elements. I don't think I ever did the math on the FS minimums, but they weren't very high. Earlier this year, there was one skater who didn't make the old minimum (28) with a 3F and 3Lo in her SP.
While Euros/4C's minimums this year were a little higher, but not much more, none of the championship minimums were set to ensure any standards: they were simply set to reduce the fields to eliminate the preliminary rounds. That will always mean in a highly competitive field, athletes with strong content will be left out because other athletes are stronger. In weaker fields, the minimums are lowered to ensure a certain range of entries. If there were 15 Ladies who met the minimums, they would have lowered the minimums until they got their 25-30, regardless of the level of the competitors.
The reasoning is that it's too expensive to hold preliminary rounds and too taxing for the judges to have very large fields in the SP/SD. Whether this means they're spending money unwisely or arguably unfairly -- i.e., taking the reduced TV money from figure skating and distributing it to speed skating or first class accommodations for ISU officials instead of coach/shared rooms for more skaters vs. spending these revenue streams or some of the top GP prize money to support their biggest championship -- is another story.
After Bavarian Cup:
Tina STURZINGER (SUI) and Alexei BYCHENKO (ISR) got their missing scores needed. So you can add one spot for mor Men and Ladies
So did Nicole Rajicova (SVK) taking 3 place with solid performance.
True but Simancikova is going to Worlds for SVK.
Is that confirmed?
Wow. That's really harsh.
TES is not only about the jumps, though.
It shouldn't be all about the TES either which is what the ISU is saying with these minimum scores.
I think that what they're saying is that at least for part of the TES value, there's a technical panel that is, at least in theory, accountable to them.
Well let's just have a jumping and levels contest then and dispense with music and choreography. It'll make it all much fairer and be sure to be a ratings winner!
Is it about how much you can cram into a program but not execute or how well someone can execute a pretty difficult program?
Essentially, the minimum scores for the championships are like technical tests that skaters need to have passed to be allowed to enter the championship (or to be considered for entry, if their federations have more qualified skaters than spots available). The test that skaters have to pass to qualify for Worlds is harder than for the other ISU Championships, though not as hard as originally announced.
(And unlike tests the qualifications expire after two years.)
Because of the way it's set up, the minimum score measures only difficulty and execution of the elements.
If it weren't also serving the purpose of keeping the size of the field down to a manageable size, we could have more skaters entered and many of them would be cut after the first phase of competition.
However, the cuts made at the competition are based on placements, which also take into account the program components.
So if there were a qualifying round/qualifying competition that also served as an opportunity to earn the minimum scores (i.e., pass the tests), you might have some skaters who place high enough to advance to the next round largely on the strength of their skating skills and presentation but haven't met the minimum scores, and other skaters who have met the minimum scores but lost to skaters who didn't.
In that sense the process is not completely logically consistent.
I wish there were some way to take into account the Skating Skills as well. But the component score is too subject to judges' personal opinions, or worse.
But so are the technical scores, through the application of GOE. Just look at the protocols for any event, the judges are just as inconsistent with GOE as they are for PCS. For example at Europeans in the Men's SP: http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2013/ec2013_Men_SP_Scores.pdf
Plushenko's 3lz is given a range from 0 to -3
Fernandez's 4S & Jobert's CCoSp given a range 1 to 3
Pfeifer's CCSp3 given a range from 0 to 3
Besseghier's 3lz given a range from 1 to -2. The judges aren't even consistent on whether the element deserved a positive or negative grade!
The original minimum scores for championships were set, at least in the SP, around the minimal required technical content. They were set at the most minimal technical test a skater had to pass. Even if that skater did not attempt or had never attempted one or more required elements, like a 3/2 combo, any 3/2 combo, the skater was allowed to compensate by any combination of higher levels on leveled elements, GOE, and the base of the solo triple from steps.
The GP minimums, which include PCS, were created explicitly to create a high bar and ensure a quality standard. Last year, they were nearly impossible to meet if the championships skater earned the lowest TES minimums. Even so, minimums aren't required for all skaters: this year, comeback skaters were expected to meet the standard, based on past results, and the hosts were given a break (unlike last season) because the GP minimm was recommended, but not a rule to be broken.
This year, the minimums were created explicitly to limit the fields to a target number of skaters, give or take a few. The minimums aren't like a technical test in that sense. They don't require that a skater shows a specific skill set to pass, else fail. The Euros/4C's minimums were higher than last year's minimums, but they were still much closer to the minimum required content, at least for the SP, and it's possible to construe them as a technical test, but they were set specifically to limit the fields and lower the costs by eliminating the prelims, and this more-or-less worked, as they didn't raise the singles minimums to narrow the SP field from 36 to 30, for exampke. If the judges say that the fields were too big to judge the SP well -- the given reason for re-introducing quali rounds -- or they decided they didn't want to pay for a dozen extra skaters, then I'd expect the Euros/4C's minimums to be raised next year, if all variables were assessed individually.
Someone here posted the correct analogy, IMO, which is how in swimming, there's a set field, and the qualifying times are set based on the strength of the overall field to limit competition to the right number of spots. If the field is strong, the qualifying times are raised.
I don't think there's any confusion: it's the one place the ISU was quite explicit about its reasoning, and, unlike the GP minimum rules, they didn't allow anyone to break them.
Next year, if the SOV and the rules are the same or changed minimally, the final TES minimums for Worlds and Euros/4C's could change from this years' based on the strenth of the fields.
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