Israeli federation objects to the new minimum TES scores

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by halfloopy, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. Jemestone

    Jemestone New Member

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    I believe this makes sense in the context in which we are speaking about.

    When there was the QR, the skaters who didn't make it to the short program, their federation had to foot the hotel bill and related expenses. The skaters who made it pass the QR expenses were covered by the host fed. The smaller feds didn't like this (they would rather not pay for their skaters if they did not qualify to the short program.....or period) and voted to get rid of the QR. Now for upcoming Worlds, the Canadian fed will have to pay for everyone since there is no more QR. This raises the host fed cost to hold an event. The Canadian fed got mad since there is no more QR, they have to make more room (longer hotel stay, more ice time) for skaters who they wouln't normally have to due to said skaters being eliminated in QR and their respective feds footing the bill. This lead to higher qualifying minimums.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  2. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Jemestone, how does it raise the cost if the host is paying for exactly the same amount of skaters as when PRs were in place?

    But it's never consistent anyway. ;)

    I call bullshit on this one. How exactly would it be more expensive now?
     
  3. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Please don't lump all the small federations together. Some of them voted to retain the preliminary rounds.
     
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    That's certainly true in an ordinals system, where they are expected to remember skaters from hours before to make a direct comparison. However, I would expect more consistency with IJS and the corridor system, since they need to predict what the other judges will do to keep in the corridor and from getting written up. That "consistency" is a consistent problem.
     
  5. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think they must be talking net rather than total outlays. I would think the organizers are still paying the same expenses for the short and free programs, but they no longer have the ticket revenue from the qualifying rounds. I guess the cost of those rounds to the organizers was less than the revenue.
     
  6. elfenblüte

    elfenblüte New Member

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    I wish they would go back to the preliminary rounds, and every ISU member has the right to send a skater to the World championships again. It is not a real World Championship when only skaters from 6 countries are competing.
     
  7. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Well, your numbers are a bit off, but it is a good point (and probably an even bigger issue in pairs and dance than singles). Out of curiosity, I checked ladies event at last year's Worlds. Among the 30 short program skaters, there were 23 different countries represented. There were 20 additional countries with entries in the qualifying round but nobody advancing to the SP.

    So, with the new field size limit of 30, barely half as many federations (23/43) would get to send a skater in this discipline. Of course, this would be just as true whether they use qualifying scores or a separate qualifying event.

    It's just that the qualifying rounds have been so problematic over the years. They have tried a number of different approaches and people found things to complain about with all of them.

    Maybe they need to make it harder for countries to get two or three slots, or get rid of the current approach to slots altogether.
     
  8. Jemestone

    Jemestone New Member

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    Well I said correct me if I was wrong :rolleyes:
     
  9. VALuvsMKwan

    VALuvsMKwan Wandering Goy

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    And apparently your request was granted...why the :rolleyes: ?
     
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Hardly any tickets for the Preliminary Rounds were sold.

    I remember now. Morry Stillwell explained in another thread that it's the entry fees. Now that the fields have been drastically reduced, the organisers won't be earning all the money from entry fees from the skaters who wouldn't make the SP.

    But then this is the ISU's fault. They could just let everybody skate the SP in two groups like before. :p
     
  11. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    What were the years they did this? I remember qualifying skaters in two groups, back when they made everybody skate in the Q round. It was awful. It seemed every year one group was distinctly weaker than the other and there was no consistency between the two judging panels. That one didn't last long.

    I can't imagine how they could fairly implement any system where points are added into the result without having everyone marked by the same judges.
     
  12. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    From 2007-2010, or for four seasons, there were no preliminary rounds. Preliminary rounds were re-instated in 2011, but not with the entire fields.

    In fact, they lasted from at least thirteen seasons, from 1993-1994, and from 1996-2006. Wikipedia only shows (sometimes partial) results for the SP and LP/FS in 1991-2 and 1995.

    With the implementation of preliminaries in 2011, there were anomalies in field strength, as countries that qualified more skaters in 2011 than in 2010 had to send one skater to the prelims. Reigning silver medalist Takahiko Kozuka, for example, had to skate prelims, because his World Standing was third of the three Japanese men.

    Because not everyone skates the preliminary round, the scores are dropped. There was no reason that the ISU couldn't have dropped the quali scores as well, even when everyone skated them, and just use them as a way to cut down the field to 30/25/20.
     
  13. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    :violin::violin::violin:
    :blah::blah::blah::violin::violin::violin:
     
  14. shah

    shah Well-Known Member

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    wheee, 50+ ladiezzzzzz, from 9 am to 5 pm! :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2: ;)
     
  15. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    For most of that time, the qualifying or preliminary rounds were just that. They served to eliminate skaters, but scores/placements did not carry forward into the event itself. I think that change was made in the mid 90s, because the best skaters were not attempting their full program content in the Q round, only doing enough to make sure they got thru to the SP. That made those rounds kind of a let down for audiences and of little interest to TV broadcasters. In an effort to wring even more money out of broadcasters, the ISU made this round count something like 10% of the total final score, so name skaters would make more of an effort. (Ordinals were factored from the 3 phases in a ratio of 1-3-6, IIRC.)


    I didn't remember the skaters competing in separate groups, though, as someone suggested above. I thought the conversation at the time was that the judges and/or callers found it very difficult to work thru that many programs. I'm pretty sure it was lessons from this experiment that caused the ISU to decide to set the 30 skater limit for short programs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  16. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Which is normal in just about every other sport where there are prelims, qualis, early heats, round robin. The athletes attempt to peak in the final. Since there are few spectators at figure skating quali rounds, and the $$$ is supposedly in entry fees, they shouldn't have cared if Plushenko, for example, came in and did a 3F as his hardest jump in the qualis and sleep walked through his program, as long as the numbers added up. Also, if they're so convinced in their own WR system, they could have given a bye to anyone above a WR cut-off, and now that they have a SB list for the current season, they could have done the same with SB.

    A change in the mid-'90's would have been most of the years in which there were quali rounds.
     
  17. poths

    poths Well-Known Member

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    I objected to him buying a fcking bronze medal for his daughter and fostering the underhanded, bribe the block disease that riddled the sport for a decade. This scumbag is still in the sport? Prize prick.
     
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I only remember Cinquanta complaining, not the actual panels. ;)
     
  19. bruno6

    bruno6 New Member

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    The scumbag,will unfortunately be in the sport buying skater judges and anyone he can
    For his daughters career. But good news is most judges and federations can't stand him
    Guess his daughter will have a tougher time with the criteria and it will be harder for them to try and buy the panel so her teams can make it in, thus the protest
     
  20. Braulio

    Braulio Well-Known Member

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    Like at the 2008 and 2009 worlds... I survived both!!! :scream:
     
  21. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    His daughter coaches skaters from 3 different countries at least (Japan, Ukraine and Israel, am sure there are more). She'll be just fine.
     
  22. bruno6

    bruno6 New Member

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    Right, Japan choked at worlds didn't make it thru Qualifiying. israel didn't Q at junior worlds or worlds and Ukraine well papaB surly bought Ukraine Judges, you right she will
    Be fine!
     
  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Chris Reed was injured last Fall and was never at full strength last season.
     
  24. halfloopy

    halfloopy New Member

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    Gailhaguet has also taken up the cause now and is proposing yet another qualification approach, which he would like put into use ASAP. Seems like he want a lower TES scores to make the championships about the same size as the former final rounds, but then also add a semi-final, if they guess wrong and too many skaters make the TES cut.
     
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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  26. halfloopy

    halfloopy New Member

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