Israeli federation objects to the new minimum TES scores

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by halfloopy, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. halfloopy

    halfloopy New Member

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  2. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Bit late now, isn't it? Why weren't they kicking up a fuss about this when it was coming in?

    I mean, I agree with them, but why wait a few months before getting cranky about it?
     
  3. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Boris Chait is a stupid twat. He was warned that getting rid of preliminaries would result in restricted entries and he still went ahead with his campaign. He's responsible for this mess.

    He could also learn how to spell Cinquanta's name correctly. :rolleyes:
     
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  4. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    So he dug his own grave and he's still complaining? :rolleyes:
     
  5. 2sk8

    2sk8 Active Member

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    Frankly, other than a mis-spelling, the letter seems quite reasonable and proper. Most on this board also thought the increases were excessive and arbitrary, precisely because it would so drastically reduce the numbers qualifying, thereby making it even more difficult for smaller federations to develop the sport and for figure skating in general to grow in popularity.
    Good for him for saying what so many here think ;) - perhaps all the other similarly-affected federations should follow suit.
     
  6. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure that Boris Chait is much more used to using the Hebrew and Cyrillic alphabets than the Latin one. He did spell "Cinquanta" properly in the body of the letter.

    And as for the substance -- better late than never! The issue isn't going away.
     
  7. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I find this ironic considering that Israel has stringent qualifications for who can go to the Olympics and will keep good skaters who qualified a berth via ISU procedures at home... but maybe that's the Israeli Olympic committee, not the skating federation.

    The letter isn't that unreasonable; they don't seem to disagree with the concept of a minimum score, they just feel that the increases in the score are too much. I don't see what the ISU can do about it now, though.
     
  8. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    He doesn't have a problem with restricted entries. He's asking that the minimum scores be set so that there are the same number of competitors in the SP/SD after preliminaries (30 for singles, 25 for Dance, and 20 for Pairs).
     
  9. 2sk8

    2sk8 Active Member

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    Yes, that is the Israeli Olympic Committee, not the skating federation - and Chait was not pleased when they would not allow Katz to go to the Olys, so I see nothing inconsistent with his positions.
     
  10. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    Twat or not, I hope other federations follow.. If they were strong enough to get rid of QR they need to get together and force the lowering of the minimun scores.. Its not too late for some damage control.
     
  11. Jemestone

    Jemestone New Member

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    Hmmm, allezfred summed up my feelings exactly.

    You either have QR and lower the minimum scores, or you have no QR and raise the minimum scores. You can't have it both ways. Getting rid of the QR would have consequences, a fool could have seen this coming. And why should the host nation be responsible for the skaters hotel fees and stuff? Was that one of the reasons the smaller feds got rid of the QR in the first place? Tell the smaller feds to pay for all their skaters and lower the minimum scores or STFU and deal.....or just reinstate the QR, whichever is easier.
     
  12. aliona22

    aliona22 Member

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    I'm surprised we haven't heard from Israel sooner... were they even able to send a representative to Kuala Lumpur to participate in the ISU Congress? Kind of unfair if they didn't get to participate because the meeting was held in a country that prohibits entry of Israelis... :shuffle:
     
  13. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Wow. I didn't even know that. I mean I know there are some countries that prohibit the entry of Israelis, but I didn't know Malaysia was one of them. If that's the case, then that's really unfair and the ISU should have their butts kicked.
     
  14. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Do you think he wrote that himself? I'm not sure, to be honest, though telling Cinquanta to stop messing with the smaller federations suggests that he came up with the spirit of it. Anyway, Chait lives in the US, his English is probably better than his Hebrew.

    That's how it came across to me, too - that minimums are fine, but they are currently set too high, something many here have also argued. Isn't there a loophole in place that allows the ISU to change this in-season? I thought that was part of the decision that was passed. But in that case, lobbying in private should be much more effective than trying to embarrass Speedy.

    Re qualifications for Israeli athletes, as 2sk8 noted, those are NOC crtieria, not something thought up by the national federations - they would probably love to send anyone qualifying to the Olympics. I've seen suggestions that Israel's relatively poor performance at the London Olympics may have been due in part with athletes chasing the (rather stringent) qualification standards set for them instead of properly training up to the Olympics. But sometimes you have to look at it as a learning experience for the next Olympics and to develop the sport.

    Although it must be said, skating in Israel faces bigger problems than the current minimum scores.
     
  15. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Zemgirl, the problem isn't with his English, it's with his Italian. :p

    It's not that easy to sort out spelling rules in the third alphabet you've had to learn, especially when it comes to a word in a language you don't know.

    Let's cut the guy some slack.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  16. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I meant that having lived in the US for thirty years or more, he's probably more used to communicating in English and using a Latin alphabet. I'm all for cutting people some slack, but someone should certainly have double-checked to make sure the name was spelled correctly.
     
  17. Andrey aka Pushkin

    Andrey aka Pushkin Brezina's Nemesis

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    All that is very fine, but I'm a bit surprised that out of them all, Israel is the one to complaint: after all, it's not like we have figure skating anymore, thanks to Boris Chait. So why would he bother?
     
  18. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Oi, papaBoria realized the American and Ukranian skaters who he bought to represent Israel are THAT useless? About time.
     
  19. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    But then wouldn't the solution have been to import skaters from other countries? ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  20. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Boris Chait was in Kuala Lumpur.
     
  21. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

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    :respec: I hope other small federations follow through.
     
  22. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Am pretty sure PapaBoria can fetch another country's passport from his big pockets if needed.
     
  23. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Folks obsessing over this are ignoring the rest of the ISU communication. High qualifying minimums will not reduce the number of skaters are worlds. Elimination of the qualifying round already did that.

    The ISU communication clearly says the qualifying score will be moved up or down to achieve the desired field size for each event. Whether they originally set the minimum at 20 or at 100, there should still be 30 skaters in each singles discipline at Worlds. IMO it is way better to set it high then move it down to fill out the field than to set it too low then have to knock out people in spite of scores meeting the standard. Why do so many folks refuse to see this?

    Exactly. They had to raise the standards to a point where there was no chance of more automatic qualifiers than the desired field size. I will be very surprised if they then don't let in more skaters in order of best qualifying score until the fields are full.

    Good question. IMO, they totally shouldn't. The ISU gets the bulk of the TV revenue so they should pay for their own officials and the event judges, callers, referees, etc. while each federation pays for their own skaters, coaches, and support folks. Among other things, this would make it a lot easier for smaller countries to host Worlds.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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  24. tralfamadorian

    tralfamadorian Member

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    Just what I was going to say. IMO the ISU is planning to do exactly what Papa Chait is now asking for protest or no protest (allow 24/30 participants), they set the bar on the high side on purpose so that they can control the number of skaters by lowering it later to have exactly as many participants as they want.
     
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    We've talked about this numerous times, so it's not that people are not seeing it. However, the ISU has not agreed to keep at least the numbers from last year's SP/SD's, and the current approach just puts a lot of pressure and stress where it need not be. Having the higher score means that weaker federations have to keep sending their skaters to more Senior B's "just in case," which is more expensive for them, and it means more jerking the skaters around.

    I don't understand why they didn't use the solution or a modified version they have in place for the Olympics, and have a set number of spots earned at Worlds the year before, and then designate a Senior B as a Worlds qualifier to fill the rest, if they chose an early season one, like Nebelhorn. If the ISU were to choose a later one, they could also allow skaters to qualify through Euros and 4C's by meeting the higher minimum scores, and adjusting the number of spots to be earned at the Senior B. (Since the scores are so high, it's not likely that they'd be filled with no need for the Senior B.) That way, all (or most) of the skaters/teams attempting to qualify would be judged by the same panel at the same competition, and a later Senior B qualifier would be close enough to Worlds to show actual strength at that point in the season.

    Senior B organizers don't pay travel expenses or prize money, and a qualifier would guarantee them a relatively strong field.
     
  26. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    You can have it both ways, as long as skaters (or their federations) pay their own expenses.

    It's high time the federations suck it up and try to bargain going back to larger fields at ISU competitions in exchange for this.
     
  27. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the money is the driving force here. It is the need to limit the field to a manageable size.

    The problem with allowing anyone in who can pay their way is that yields way too many skaters to accommodate without a qualifying round. One panel of judges and callers can only cope with so many short programs in one day. The ISU has decided that number is 30 for singles. It has to be very tiring to remain that focused for that many hours. As it is, the scoring officials already sometimes seem to have difficulty remaining consistent across 30 entrants.
     
  28. bruno6

    bruno6 New Member

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    I never believed Mr Chait did anything for his skaters. The only person Mr Chait does
    Anything for is his daughter. At the cost of Coaches , other Skaters and the sport of Ice dancing. He is one of the reasons Ice Dancing Has become Unrecognizable. All of his games with Judges and destruction to the sport
     
  29. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    But the judges are somehow managing at other competitions and they have managed before.

    Remember that there is a long break between the two halves in cases there's a lot of competitors.

    And money has been cited as one of the main reasons for making those changes. The organisers of upcoming ISU competitions said that they can't afford to host them if they have to deal with so many skaters. That's what got the ball rolling.
     
  30. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Let's be honest. Nobody but the participants and a handful of fanatics care about the minor competitions. The ISU is worried about judging credibility at their major championships, where the media might be watching.

    A long break only makes it harder. The more hours go by, the harder it is to be consistent between the first competitor and the last.

    The ISU communication assumes the new, limited field will be more costly to host federations, not less.
    "Even with these Minimum Total Technical Scores which limit the entries to the necessary reasonable level as described above, the abolishment of the Preliminary Rounds will most likely result in higher expenses for the organizers."

    (I personally don't see why, either, but I'm not privy to how these things are financed and who pays for what.)