Isabella Tobias denied Lithuanian citizenship ...

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by kosjenka, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Actually, for the purpose of the Law of Return you don't need to be Jewish according to religious standards (through the mother), only to have Jewish ancestry within a couple of generations. Which Reed probably doesn't anyway, so it's a moot point. Maybe she could convert :p
     
  2. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    You'd be surprised at how many people with names like "Reed" have Jewish ancestry within a couple of generations, even if they went about trying to hid "that part of the family." I don't know if it's true in Alison Reed's case, but you can't always tell by a name.

    Is the reason that so many Russian Israelis have a hard time with the Law of Return because they managed to expunge "Jewish" from their passports far enough down the line?
     
  3. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I am well aware of that. It's just that to the best of my knowledge, the Reeds are not Jewish by any definition.

    As for the second part, I'm not sure what you mean. There are a lot of Israelis who came here from the Former Soviet Union and who are not actually Jewish. If someone can't prove that they have the relevant ancestry then they'd have difficulty making aliyah to begin with. If you're trying to prove yourself Jewish for religious purposes (e.g. marriage - we don't have civil weddings), then it's more difficult and restrictive.

    It's kind of OT for this thread, though (my fault), unless Tobias is planning to represent Israel?
     
  4. apatinar

    apatinar Active Member

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    I thought that these were ice dancing competitions.Not performance art... If she is far from the best ice dancer, how did she win a bronze medal at Skate America?
     
  5. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Because the others were even farther from the best? Winning a bronze medal &#8800; being the best and doesn't necessarily mean being close to it, either.

    And you are aware that skaters are marked, among other things, for performance and execution, right?
     
  6. apatinar

    apatinar Active Member

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    Yes, but at the end of the day, if this is an ice dancing competition, then the judges should actually be looking at what is going on with her feet on the ice?
    Maybe I'm a bit obsessed with this because I am from NYC and saw what a sham all of this is, but if this is the way it normally is done with ice dancing across the board (i.e. marginal talent / enough bucks to buy a great partner & obviously judges from the Skate America medal) then this is another reason why I stopped watching dance a long time ago... If the judges are going to give more weight to an eye movement or a flick of the wrist ( performance quality) rather than edge quality , then I don't even see the need for the competition to be taking place ON the ice..
     
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Maurizio Margaglio wasn't the best ice dancer, and he is a World Champion and Olympic medalist. Roman Kostomarov wasn't the best ice dancer, and he's a World and Olympic champion. Ruslan Goncharov wasn't the best ice dancer, and he's an Olympic bronze medalist.

    They happened to have top-notch partners.
     
  8. apatinar

    apatinar Active Member

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    It takes two to tango , no? lol.. I can drag a sack of potatoes around with me on the ice and the judges would probably score me a zero, but I am sure the judges would be much more interested if the sack of potatoes I was dragging around was actually a sack of gold..
    The mystery of dance just keeps getting more and more mysterious for me..
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    If the only thing that matters in figure skating is blade to ice, Chan, Kozuka, and Abbott would never be off the podium. There are other elements and criteria to figure skating and ice dancing than blade to ice. If T/S won bronze at Skate America, it means that two teams in the field were better than they, and the rest were worse. You're always welcome to argue why any of the teams below them wuzrobbed.
     
  10. Finnice

    Finnice Well-Known Member

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    Am I dreaming? Ziggy is saying positive things about Tobias?;)
    And that is true, too, she does not hold back when performing. I feel sorry for them not be be able to compete in the Olympics.
     
  11. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    You know someone has gone too far when FSUers are jumping in to defend Tobias :D
     
  12. apatinar

    apatinar Active Member

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    Chan can slip-slide around the ice on his rear end for half the program and still remain on the podium because of his skating skills. Kozuka is inconsistent and Abbott is a headcase but they still remain close to the podium because of their skating skills... The difference between singles skaters like these 3 and what has been mentioned about ice dancing by other posters in this thread is that if Chan, Kozuka and Abbott couldn't do the triples and quads, they would not even be invited to world level competition.. They would be the beautiful edge skaters who couldn't jump well and skating on cruise ships...Unlike Margalio, Kostamorov, Goncharov, and Tobias etc. who ALL have been mentioned that they are not the best ice dancers but somehow find their way to the medals... What other sport can an man or woman say that they are an Olympic & World Champion, but oh - they are not really the best at what they do.... They were basically carried around by a rich girl with enough money and skating skills to make it to the top... Or in Tobias' case - A rich girl with sub par skating skills (but oh can she bat her eyelashes and turn on the charm for the judges!!!) buying various partners from relatively obscure Eastern European countries with excellent skating skills.. It doesn't make sense and it should be an embarrassment to even mention it... The fact that this girl is mentioned in any sentence with world level competition to me is absolutely insane with the thousands of more qualified girls who are on cruise ships because they didn't pick an ice dancing partner from Tajikistan...
     
  13. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I still can't get over that one... and them winning it with her wearing pasties.
     
  14. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I believe there are several issues here.

    First, Stagni&#363;nas apparently doesn't want to change citizenship (at least, that's what it says in that Lithuanian-language interview with Isabella Tobias to which Sylvia linked).

    Second, Lithuanian citizenship is not easy to obtain unless you live in the country.

    Third, as stated in that Lithuanian-language interview, Lithuania doesn't have any coaches who could handle a top-level ice dance couple.

    Fourth, any woman who would come close to Stagni&#363;nas's level of ability would want to compete in the Olympics. But, the first three considerations effectively make that impossible, since, unless Stagni&#363;nas changed his mind, they would have to skate for Lithuania.

    Since the top-level female ice dancers don't want to forfeit their chance at the Olympics, Stagni&#363;nas has to make do with what is available.

    You don't have to have citizenship in order to represent a country at ISU competitions, but you do in order to skate at the Olympics. That's because the IOC has different rules from the ISU.

    I don't know for certain, but I would expect that the same is true for judges. Can you name any particular skating judges who represented a country at the Olympics without actually being a citizen of that country?
     
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  15. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

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    I may be wrong but Stagniunas was considered when Jana Khokhlova was looking for a partner and she ended up choosing Andreev!!!!
    We could have had a Khokhlova-Stagniunas for Russia and Tobias-Andreev partnership instead. But Jana made the irrational decision to fall in love with the non-ice dancer!
     
  16. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Do we know for sure it was Jana and not Devidas who nixed the partnership? Surely he would have taken on Russian citizenship to compete with a partner of that caliber?
     
  17. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Allright, allright, Tobias peed in your cereals. Now that we got that clear can we please move on? Thanks.
     
    PRlady and (deleted member) like this.
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Why are people making the assumption that it's Khoklova and not Stagniunas who decided the partnership wouldn't work? Or not both?

    It's not like Khoklova is technically a much better skater than him, if at all. Her main (and only tbh :p) ability was contorting herself in all possible directions and going full OTT.

    I don't think she is, no.

    It's got nothing to do with the EU. It's totally up to the individual member states how they draft and apply their own citizenship laws.

    The IOC regulates Olympic eligibility for athletes, ISU regulates the figure skating judging. One doesn't have anything to do with the other.

    Performance ability, body line, expression, timing and so on and so forth are all part of the PCS criteria.

    Because there's more factors to consider than the technical ability of one partner. And it's not like they were up against a strong field at that event.

    They should be looking at everything that is specified in the judging criteria.

    And more often than not, Tobias/Stagniunas are actually able to do ok on the levels so she is doing something right.

    I really do not get your obsession over this. That's how the world works. Money can buy you nearly everything and obviously your chances of achieving success are infinitely greater if you have adequate resources to invest. Not just in figure skating but in everything else in life as well. Unless you're extremely naive and/or living under a rock, I don't get how this would be surprising or shocking. This is simply the way things are. Tough shit.

    The judges should be giving weight to both.

    I mean we could of course scrap the short and free programs and just hold compulsory figures events. I am sure those would be a massive hit with the audiences and ensure a long-term health of the sport. :p

    I wish Stagniunas had a partner who was stronger technically but you can't deny that Tobias is an incredible performer. Always bringing the voids, always fabulously OTT and always giving it everything she's got. She deserves some respect. :p
     
    Kasey and (deleted member) like this.
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    If Tobias couldn't do the lifts, spins, twizzles, key points in the SD, etc., T/S wouldn't have repeatedly achieved the very high TES minimums needed to compete at Worlds.
     
  20. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I agree Tobias isn't the strongest partner for Stegiunas, but in her defense she's worked hard and improved since they first came onto the scene. I still don't think she gets as much glide from her pushes as some of the other elite dancers, but she is a good performer and hits nice positions in lifts and spins. Not sure where all this hate is coming from, but I hope they decide to stay together and do well, regardless of Sochi.
     
  21. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Ok, debating on which skater is artistic, sporty, or deserving enough is ridiculous, when it comes to their immigration status. Do you think the immigration committees actually sit around debating whether or not a skater deserved a medal?

    Regarding all the details about Kaitlyn, Tanith's immigration vs. other skaters... Yes, countries all have different rules and Isabella knew this. But that doesn't mean that Kaitlyn is any more "deserving" of citizenship or the chance to compete just because she chose a country with easier rules. Kaitlyn also "jumped the line."

    There's no need for bringing whatever money Isabella's family has into this, or how "pushy" her parents supposedly are. Even if it's true, she would not be the first or last skater with a pushy parent - so what? And if anyone thinks the top two teams in the world right now do not come from family money, they are dreaming. Does that make them less deserving? Did they themselves not put in the work to get where they are?

    I still think it's a good idea to give a mixed team the chance to compete at Olympics. If they can make a minimum qualifying score then why not?

    My last question is why they both didn't move out of Lithuania and into AZE or some "easier" country, long ago?
     
  22. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    What would you in terms of medals, if it comes to that? Would each country win 0.5? You couldn't really have each country winning a full medal since that would be unfair to same-country pairings...For better or worse, Olympic participation is tied into having your country's citizenship figured out. At least, based on the way things stand right now. Maybe the IOC would start looking into allowing mixed teams in the future, who knows?
     
  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Since the countries in question get to decide who is deserving based on their own goals and values, and they decide whether to use national resources for the exception processes, I don't think they care whether you or I or anyone else considers the recipients or those denied as "deserving."

    According to the article discussed above, Stagniunas didn't want to give up Lithuanian citizenship. Dual citizenship in Lithuania is allowed under limited circumstances, and skating for another country isn't one of them. In 2010 Lithuania killed a measure to allow dual citizenship on a broad basis.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  24. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    No, it has to be a *good-looking* sack of gold :p
     
  25. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    Or at least a well dressed one. Oh, wait. This is ice dance. Strike that. ;)
     
  26. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I think the EU does look down on anything that resembles corruption or a member state bending laws for corrupt purposes. With the Baltic states being on the EU's "border," so to speak, it may want to keep its house looking clean.

    Funny thing is it was recently suggested that USA start combating its government's fiscal problems by allowing wealthy moguls to buy accelerated citizenship when they invest millions (or some high amount) in American public/urban projects like stadiums, convention centers, etc. There is also talk of just selling citizenship or residency to the highest bidders at auction.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/busin...d_solve_the_illegal_immigration_problem_.html
     
  27. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Now ubering Machida's hair

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    Umm.... Allowing citizenship based on merit is not corrupt... That makes no sense.
    Most countries in the EU allow dual citizenship, andrh rules are very different (Great Britain has a unique set of rules for common wealth nations, afaik, for instance).

    No one has suggested she would buy her citizenship??? That is ludicrous.
     
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Buying permanent residency isn't ludicrous: for example, there are two types of economic classes in Canada, the Entrepreneur Class, where a person invests a minimum amount in a business and needs to employ a minimum number of people in a set time frame, and Investor Class, where a much bigger sum is invested in a government approved fund. (The money is paid directly to the government.). There are limits -- the person has to show that they earned the money in the first place, and that they have the skills, not just a parent writing a big check for their kid -- but it's still using moeny to obtain rsidency. Once granted, the standard citizenship rules apply, unless an exception is granted.

    Canada isn't the only country with this kind of scheme, and it's not considered corrupt, at least by years of elected governments.
     
  29. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Based on what posters in this thread have said, it sounds like it could have the appearance of favoritism. Other posters suggested she was not going to live there or meet other expectations for merit-based citizenship. Anyway, I for one regret they could not make the exception based on their Europeans and Worlds placements.
     
  30. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Now ubering Machida's hair

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    what I meant was - to say that it is some kind of corrupt scheme (that the EU cares about) that Tobias has engaged in is plain silly, as was insinuated in the post above mine.

    just as it is silly to call entrepreneur citizenship rules for corruption - afaik it exists for the US too (and you have to invest 500k$ I think), as you mention.