Isabella Tobias denied Lithuanian citizenship ...

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by kosjenka, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Not that I'm aware of. I think she only moved there when she partnered with Bonheur. As late as fall 2007 she was still competing for Great Britain internationally.

    Papa Boria vs. Eli Yishai... yeah, I'm going to give this one to Yishai and his minions, if it comes to that.

    They couldn't even get Tamar Katz to Vancouver, even though she'd qualified and had citizenship.
  2. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Weaver/Poje trained in Canada -- Kitchener/Waterloo and Toronto -- until 2009, the year she was granted citizenship. The residency rules for citizenship are three years physical residency of four after receiving Permanent Resident status. I'm not sure how long it took for Weaver to be granted PR status after she and Poje teamed up, but she neither had the full three years of residency requirements nor went through the standard citizenship application process, which can take up to two years. That's why the established exception process was used.

    As far as fairness, each country sets up its own rules and aims for granting citizenship. Canada has many avenues for becoming a resident and eventually citizenship and immigration is largely one way in. Lithuania, at least modern sovereign Lithuania, does not. That Canada has different standards for detemining the basis for making an exception has little to do with fairness and all to do with sovereignty.

    As far as figure skaters vs. scientists in the US goes, Levin didn't create a hierarchy among those in the "extraordinary" category: the US Congress did when they amended Levin's amendment as part of the negotiations to pass an appropriations bill.
  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Ah sorry it was Canada she was born in and had roots to.
  4. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    I remember her as a young girl at the rink and she was the absolute least talented but her super pushy mother turned her into a world class ice dancer??? How does that happen?? hmmmmm
  5. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Yeah, cuz her "pushy mother" is the one who's been putting in the hours of work practicing, and then performing the programs before international judging. Apparently Tobias did absolutely nothing to get to the level she's at. :rolleyes:

    I don't even care about this team (well, I wish he had a stronger partner), but some people in this thread are just bitchy for the sake of it. Shocking, on FSU, I know! ;)
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  6. 2sk8

    2sk8 Active Member

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    This.

    Give the girl some credit, even if you have some personal issue with the family. She worked hard, the couple has done well - this is a very saddening setback.
  7. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    The real question is out of all the girls out there, how is it that this girl was able to even have the opportunity to perform those programs before international judging...
  8. Capella

    Capella Guest

    Isabella was already a successful ballerina in the NYC circuit as a child, so it's not like she came into ice dance as a complete spazz with no performance ability.
  9. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    The real question is why you're so obsessive about her. But to answer your question: drive, dedication, perseverance, luck, hard work, and yes, the ability to finance a very expensive athletic pursuit. Were you under the illusion that skaters make it to the top (which Tobias didn't, BTW) based on nothing but talent?
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  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Money can provide a big advantage in figure skating, but it doesn't automatically provide the desire for an athlete to train/compete, determination to improve, and overall dedication to the sport that's needed on a daily basis to compete at the highest levels.
  11. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    I dont understand this at all.
    Tobias is not as good as ice dancer as Stagniūnass?
    Why on earth is he skating with her? It is well known that top MALE ice dancers are rare and girls have to "fight" for the fitting partner.
    After the fiasco with his former partner (same situation with citizenship btw) Stagniūnass was on the hunt for new partner and if I remember correctly he tested with Jana Khokhlova. People were stunned that she choose Fedor Andreev - skater with no ice dance experience over a solid Stagniūnass.
    Maybe Stagniūnass is not THAT much better than Tobias. I see great elegance in her moves and presence. Their Rachmaninov free dance gives me chills. That hasn't happened in a while.
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    This.

    Whilst technically Tobias might be far from the best ice dancer, she is one of the best performers and always gives it 110% in competitions.

    She's probably paying his expenses.
  13. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Sure he would. Mainly because Reeds are in dahling daughter's group and there aren't that many other skaters there. PapaBoria had to finance the previous partner (Bugrov), while assume he doesn't have to with Reed. The chances making it to the olys are equally nill with the minimum TES, the Euros placement and the Tamar Katz IOC example. Hence Reed might as well go without the citizenship, but the pair is cheaper.
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Reed/Rogov have made the TES minimums for Euros and the World TES SD TES minimum, coming within a point twice of the FD TES minimum. They have another chance to make the FD minimum at Euros.

    There's no guarantee they'll place high enough at Euros to get Israeli Olympic Committee approval or even qualify for the Olympics, but they've only been together for a minute and a half, and she's very talented.

    I have no idea on what basis the Israeli government would grant her citizenship, though, if all of the other stars fell into alignment.
  15. PRlady

    PRlady aspiring tri-national

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    Well, zemgirl's crack about Eli Yishai tells you it would be very political. (And where wouldn't it be?) Plenty of Russian Israelis are not technically Jewish but are related to someone who qualifies for citizenship. Unless the Japanese are one of the 10 lost tribes, let's assume she would only get citizenship with some political pull, but it's not impossible.
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  16. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    It's more likely on her father's side of the family, but I'm not sure whether that would be counted, especially by the Eli Yishai's of the world.
  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I assume it helps when you are immigrating from one EU state to another as Vanessa James did-- from GBR (since she was Bermudan through her father) to FRA. Anyone know if that simplified matters for her becoming French?

    Now Tobias I assume is of Lithuanian ancestry. Am I wrong? Why is she too lazy to learn any Lithuanian? She ought to have claimed she was studying it. It seems that Lithuania applies its citizenship law carefully. As an EU member in that part of Europe, it may have little choice.

    They are one of my favorite dance teams because they are sexy.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  18. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

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    In a recent article about them, it stated that Isabella was studying the language three times a week. She spoke it in an interview in Lithuania.
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  20. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    Sorry state. The "judging" community obviously does not need to meet anywhere near to this kind of international/citizenship scrutiny, as an unspoken percentage of judges who "represent" countries other than "Russia" can sit in front of judging computers to choose our Olympic and World champions. But athletes seem to have to meet a higher bar to represent. The lines are blurred and grey.
  21. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Actually, for the purpose of the Law of Return you don't need to be Jewish according to religious standards (through the mother), only to have Jewish ancestry within a couple of generations. Which Reed probably doesn't anyway, so it's a moot point. Maybe she could convert :p
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    You'd be surprised at how many people with names like "Reed" have Jewish ancestry within a couple of generations, even if they went about trying to hid "that part of the family." I don't know if it's true in Alison Reed's case, but you can't always tell by a name.

    Is the reason that so many Russian Israelis have a hard time with the Law of Return because they managed to expunge "Jewish" from their passports far enough down the line?
  23. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I am well aware of that. It's just that to the best of my knowledge, the Reeds are not Jewish by any definition.

    As for the second part, I'm not sure what you mean. There are a lot of Israelis who came here from the Former Soviet Union and who are not actually Jewish. If someone can't prove that they have the relevant ancestry then they'd have difficulty making aliyah to begin with. If you're trying to prove yourself Jewish for religious purposes (e.g. marriage - we don't have civil weddings), then it's more difficult and restrictive.

    It's kind of OT for this thread, though (my fault), unless Tobias is planning to represent Israel?
  24. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    I thought that these were ice dancing competitions.Not performance art... If she is far from the best ice dancer, how did she win a bronze medal at Skate America?
  25. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Because the others were even farther from the best? Winning a bronze medal ≠ being the best and doesn't necessarily mean being close to it, either.

    And you are aware that skaters are marked, among other things, for performance and execution, right?
  26. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    Yes, but at the end of the day, if this is an ice dancing competition, then the judges should actually be looking at what is going on with her feet on the ice?
    Maybe I'm a bit obsessed with this because I am from NYC and saw what a sham all of this is, but if this is the way it normally is done with ice dancing across the board (i.e. marginal talent / enough bucks to buy a great partner & obviously judges from the Skate America medal) then this is another reason why I stopped watching dance a long time ago... If the judges are going to give more weight to an eye movement or a flick of the wrist ( performance quality) rather than edge quality , then I don't even see the need for the competition to be taking place ON the ice..
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Maurizio Margaglio wasn't the best ice dancer, and he is a World Champion and Olympic medalist. Roman Kostomarov wasn't the best ice dancer, and he's a World and Olympic champion. Ruslan Goncharov wasn't the best ice dancer, and he's an Olympic bronze medalist.

    They happened to have top-notch partners.
  28. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    It takes two to tango , no? lol.. I can drag a sack of potatoes around with me on the ice and the judges would probably score me a zero, but I am sure the judges would be much more interested if the sack of potatoes I was dragging around was actually a sack of gold..
    The mystery of dance just keeps getting more and more mysterious for me..
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If the only thing that matters in figure skating is blade to ice, Chan, Kozuka, and Abbott would never be off the podium. There are other elements and criteria to figure skating and ice dancing than blade to ice. If T/S won bronze at Skate America, it means that two teams in the field were better than they, and the rest were worse. You're always welcome to argue why any of the teams below them wuzrobbed.
  30. Finnice

    Finnice Well-Known Member

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    Am I dreaming? Ziggy is saying positive things about Tobias?;)
    And that is true, too, she does not hold back when performing. I feel sorry for them not be be able to compete in the Olympics.
  31. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    You know someone has gone too far when FSUers are jumping in to defend Tobias :D
  32. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    Chan can slip-slide around the ice on his rear end for half the program and still remain on the podium because of his skating skills. Kozuka is inconsistent and Abbott is a headcase but they still remain close to the podium because of their skating skills... The difference between singles skaters like these 3 and what has been mentioned about ice dancing by other posters in this thread is that if Chan, Kozuka and Abbott couldn't do the triples and quads, they would not even be invited to world level competition.. They would be the beautiful edge skaters who couldn't jump well and skating on cruise ships...Unlike Margalio, Kostamorov, Goncharov, and Tobias etc. who ALL have been mentioned that they are not the best ice dancers but somehow find their way to the medals... What other sport can an man or woman say that they are an Olympic & World Champion, but oh - they are not really the best at what they do.... They were basically carried around by a rich girl with enough money and skating skills to make it to the top... Or in Tobias' case - A rich girl with sub par skating skills (but oh can she bat her eyelashes and turn on the charm for the judges!!!) buying various partners from relatively obscure Eastern European countries with excellent skating skills.. It doesn't make sense and it should be an embarrassment to even mention it... The fact that this girl is mentioned in any sentence with world level competition to me is absolutely insane with the thousands of more qualified girls who are on cruise ships because they didn't pick an ice dancing partner from Tajikistan...
  33. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I still can't get over that one... and them winning it with her wearing pasties.
  34. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I believe there are several issues here.

    First, Stagniūnas apparently doesn't want to change citizenship (at least, that's what it says in that Lithuanian-language interview with Isabella Tobias to which Sylvia linked).

    Second, Lithuanian citizenship is not easy to obtain unless you live in the country.

    Third, as stated in that Lithuanian-language interview, Lithuania doesn't have any coaches who could handle a top-level ice dance couple.

    Fourth, any woman who would come close to Stagniūnas's level of ability would want to compete in the Olympics. But, the first three considerations effectively make that impossible, since, unless Stagniūnas changed his mind, they would have to skate for Lithuania.

    Since the top-level female ice dancers don't want to forfeit their chance at the Olympics, Stagniūnas has to make do with what is available.

    You don't have to have citizenship in order to represent a country at ISU competitions, but you do in order to skate at the Olympics. That's because the IOC has different rules from the ISU.

    I don't know for certain, but I would expect that the same is true for judges. Can you name any particular skating judges who represented a country at the Olympics without actually being a citizen of that country?
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  35. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

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    I may be wrong but Stagniunas was considered when Jana Khokhlova was looking for a partner and she ended up choosing Andreev!!!!
    We could have had a Khokhlova-Stagniunas for Russia and Tobias-Andreev partnership instead. But Jana made the irrational decision to fall in love with the non-ice dancer!
  36. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Do we know for sure it was Jana and not Devidas who nixed the partnership? Surely he would have taken on Russian citizenship to compete with a partner of that caliber?
  37. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Allright, allright, Tobias peed in your cereals. Now that we got that clear can we please move on? Thanks.
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  38. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Why are people making the assumption that it's Khoklova and not Stagniunas who decided the partnership wouldn't work? Or not both?

    It's not like Khoklova is technically a much better skater than him, if at all. Her main (and only tbh :p) ability was contorting herself in all possible directions and going full OTT.

    I don't think she is, no.

    It's got nothing to do with the EU. It's totally up to the individual member states how they draft and apply their own citizenship laws.

    The IOC regulates Olympic eligibility for athletes, ISU regulates the figure skating judging. One doesn't have anything to do with the other.

    Performance ability, body line, expression, timing and so on and so forth are all part of the PCS criteria.

    Because there's more factors to consider than the technical ability of one partner. And it's not like they were up against a strong field at that event.

    They should be looking at everything that is specified in the judging criteria.

    And more often than not, Tobias/Stagniunas are actually able to do ok on the levels so she is doing something right.

    I really do not get your obsession over this. That's how the world works. Money can buy you nearly everything and obviously your chances of achieving success are infinitely greater if you have adequate resources to invest. Not just in figure skating but in everything else in life as well. Unless you're extremely naive and/or living under a rock, I don't get how this would be surprising or shocking. This is simply the way things are. Tough shit.

    The judges should be giving weight to both.

    I mean we could of course scrap the short and free programs and just hold compulsory figures events. I am sure those would be a massive hit with the audiences and ensure a long-term health of the sport. :p

    I wish Stagniunas had a partner who was stronger technically but you can't deny that Tobias is an incredible performer. Always bringing the voids, always fabulously OTT and always giving it everything she's got. She deserves some respect. :p
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  39. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If Tobias couldn't do the lifts, spins, twizzles, key points in the SD, etc., T/S wouldn't have repeatedly achieved the very high TES minimums needed to compete at Worlds.
  40. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I agree Tobias isn't the strongest partner for Stegiunas, but in her defense she's worked hard and improved since they first came onto the scene. I still don't think she gets as much glide from her pushes as some of the other elite dancers, but she is a good performer and hits nice positions in lifts and spins. Not sure where all this hate is coming from, but I hope they decide to stay together and do well, regardless of Sochi.