Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by sk8ingcoach, Oct 2, 2013.
Yes they have nearly everything perfect technically, but is the program itself OGM material
In the current field, yes of course. The only team that could conceivably put any type of program to come even close strictly on merit would be the Germans, and not even likely with how they have skated over the last year.
Technically, of course. Artistically? No, not for me. Their SP is good but this FP is really not doing them any favors. It won't matter though, because judging by the scores they received, not even S/S have the slightest chance to come close to them. I am just sad because V/T are excellent skaters and could do so much better than this
That is precisely what I was wondering while watching it. Technically it's obviously a yes, but apart from that, it seems completely flat to me. A feeling I've often had with this pair. They have incredible skills, yet their programmes seem to add up to less than the sum of their parts.
I also thought I'd have expected that choice of LP music more from S/S than from V/T, and the Germans would certainly have made something more interesting out of it...
I love the music from JCS so I have no problem with this FS. That they skate it so well is a bonus, I think for Olympics it will be great.
I mean honestly it's not that bad... I think it's a better vehicle than the other two programs that won OGM under CoP (T&M and S&Z). They're using the music well, skating with a lot of power, great commitment, bodyline, and control... it doesn't have the most interesting or abundant transitions in the world, but neither did those programs. It's not as good as classic 6.0 Olympic programs like those from B&S, K&D, or M&D. It's probably about the same level as G&G's Moonlight Sonata, which also wasn't very daring choreographically and was rather empty but worked because they had great basics and musicality.
It's a shame, because V&T are such great skaters and have sparring partners in S&S, who have been able to capture some of that old time magic with very inventive choreography. I thought V&T could be the ones to bring back that old style Russian school of great artistry mixed with difficulty technical content, but they haven't quite gotten there. I don't think it's fair to say they are not OGM material, though.
I agree with all of this. Well said!
It is not great and the music sucks , but the element delivery and their skating is lovely. Overall, it is not awful enough to be not a gold medal material; but they can do better
They will probably win the OGM in pairs (and maybe another one in team) so that’s a give in but the program itself is pretty boring. It’s a rehash of the same free skates they have been doing the past three seasons. Same order, up to and including the break in the middle to give them time to rest up for the second half. The costumes are fine but honestly I have no idea what they should be wearing. The music is great but the cuts are bad and they don’t seem to be skating ‘to’ the music but ‘over’ it.
They have failed at most every element at one time or another so to say they can’t fail at the Olympics and lose is ridiculous especially with that much pressure and its 100% on their shoulders. S/S know they could win or at the very least just end up with the bronze so they are under less pressure than V/T.
D/R, P/T, B/L, K/S, MT/T could all have the skate of their lives and end up on the podium. All of them have had great skates the past few years. P/T are least likely on my list to medal only because he is put together with spit and fairy dust.
V/T will only be remembered as a great pair as times goes on if they continue the next four years or win another gold in 2018. Otherwise the competition hasn't been hard enough for them. Their choreography just isn't good enough.
I agree with everything said here. The skaters are OGM material for sure, their programs are not. They kind of failed the high expectations I had for them when I first found out they were pairing up. In fact, I think I liked them the most in their first competitive season together.
Their chemistry is unbelievable and they could do so much better.
Except, Morozov's choreography wins. And wins big. It's designed to score points which is the goal. I don't expect them to change anything. I also don't expect them to keep skating another 4 years. That would only happen if they didn't win gold and even then, I don't think they will. Max has stated multiple times that he doesn't like competiting and wants to move on. Of course, people change their minds.
Exactly - they have so much talent and potential, and I also had high hopes for them. But their taste in programs is just unfortunate and makes them accomplished yet completely forgettable. Not that it matters, because they have the elements and the politiks on their side.
I don't think the material itself is going to matter that much in the head-to-head vs. Savchenko and Szolkowy.
It's probably going to come down to which team gets the higher Grades of Execution - Volosozhar/Trankov were +16 GOE in the Nebelhorn Long Program (+27% on base element score). Savchenko and Szolkowy should probably trend towards clean (i.e. no throw 3 axel) versus overly ambitious.
To those voting No, if theirs arent (even skated as cleanly and superbly as Nelberhorn) than who would be. It is laughable to even imagine anyone else right now doing something better. That includes Savchenko & Szolkowy who based on last season are probably already past their career peak and sliding downwards.
The program seems kind of empty and boring and I disagree that this pair is anywhere near as good as previous OGMs. They are technically skilled but deadly dull as music interpreters and performers. Still, saying the program isn't OGM-worthy and that this pair is not up to the standards of previous OGM pairs isn't the same as saying they won't win it. Whoever wins this year's pairs OGM will likely be the least compelling winner in my skating fandom (and that reaches back several decades).
Morozovs choreography doesnt win anything, he doesnt have any. V/Ts elements win, plain and simple. Unless its Worlds 2012 and they really bomb then they end up in 8th after the short with 60.48 points. I doubt they will change anything either, they havent in 3 seasons, why start now. The judges have proven time and time again they are willing to overlook empty programs in lieu of great elements.
I doubt they will either. I think they will retire skate shows for a few seasons and make money. Then assess the skaters in the 2017-2018 group to see if its worth coming back for the Olympic again like S/Z did. If its worth defending their title and they are healthy they will. If they dont feel they can win gold they wont come back.
V/T are not going to be gifted the same scores that they were at Nebelhorn. Its hard for judges to see skaters like the ones from Turkey and then see the World Champions and not get over zealous with their scores.
Based on last year, I havent seen S/S do worse, and they have better choreography with Steuer than V/T have with Morozov.
They had no reason to come out swinging last year, they had nothing to prove, they had no reason not to stay on a plateau and peak this season when it counts.
Weren't they the only team that landed the 3ATh in the competition at the END of the program? Didn't V/T have to take out the 3FTh because it was too hard on her hip? I don't think that says past their peak and sliding downwards to me.
I believe most would think V/T can't be touched technically in the quality of elements. Their technical ability isn't in question. It's the program they chose for the Olympics. JCS isn't what I expected from them and isn't what I would call an Olympic caliber program. I believe the music from JCS would suck as a program if any skater or team used it. I personally would have preferred the typical beautiful classical Russian program.
It's not as bad as I thought it would be but it still doesn't really POP for me.
Still, they are so lovely to watch IMO.
Of course it is. And it is gold medal material in every way. Technical elements and program elements. What else could there be? Throw 3A? Throw quad? Both of those have never been in a gold program.
They skate like this weekend and they fully deserve that OGM and it would be a travesty if the judges tried to keep them from it. They are probably the strongest technical merit pairs team in history already, and their artistry isnt great and below quite a few other greats in history, but none of the current pairs are great in that area and most are significantly worse (that Canadian team that won bronze at Worlds, the Chinese pairs, that Russian pair which were 2nd at the Grand Prix final, the U.S pairs, haha artistry, not).
V/T's biggest competitors are four-time world champions who have continuously pushed the envelope both technically (throws at the end of the program, throw 3A, very original elements and transitions) and artistically, interpreting and performing to an incredible range of music and styles. I think it's unfortunate that V/T are squandering their talent on underwhelming programs, and it saddens me that this "get the points" approach and politikal support will almost certainly best S/S, one of the greatest and most creative pairs ever. People like to say that the IJS has affected pairs in the worst way, but that's not true when it comes to S/S, because they are not content to just get the points.
At least we will always have Pina. And I will continue to hope that S/S will somehow manage to win the OGM.
Regardless of those views S&S have absolutely no case if they cant do clean programs and V&T are doing them and S&S havent been doing clean programs for awhile now. I agree that the judges would go with V&T anyway at this point but if both teams skate like they are now, nobody will be crying over the result either.
In order to beat clean V/T, S/S have to tend towards clean AND overly ambitious, I'd say.
I have to say I still prefer the ambitious fighter type, who push their own limits, like Mao and S/S over the safe-but-always-clean type like Yu-na and V/T.
ITA. I love S&S. I always say that they are the best ice dancers among pairs. Their programs are always so full and artistically complete. Even if they lack the amazing chemistry V/T have, they are still capable of creating masterpieces. Pina was one, but my fav of them has to be their Out of Africa FP. Such a shame they practically never skated it cleanly.
I really love V/T, I was so excited when they were paired together because she is unimaginably talented and it was clear she was never going to reach her potential with Stanislav Morozov, (despite the fact that I love him). In my mind I had V/T pegged as being similar in style to G&G, and skating beautiful, intricate, classical programs with amazing elements combined. But despite the fact that I love them, I've just been so disappointed in their programs; there's nothing I can think of which has blown me away or really left me with any emotional response other than; meh. They're gorgeous skaters and I'd still say they were my favourite pair, but at this point I think I'd rather that S/S won the Olympics. S/S are getting to the point that they can't continue - they have tried to push the envelope with their choreography and they have pushed forward technically as well, so I feel they'd deserve it. Also from a totally selfish point of view, perhaps losing to them would encourage V/T to stick around for another four years and try a bit harder with the choreography in the process!
IMO it's too early to say if it's OGM material or not, if you try to evaluate their current performances. As the season progresses, skaters do make changes to their programs and the execution gets much better after the GP. I would not pass judgment on it, unless they did not have the technical difficulty required for an OGM. I believe they do have that. It's a matter of developing that program presentation wise, to where they are confident skating it in its improved form.
But GOE can be political, no? All they have to do is lowball S&S with +1 and 2 for clean elements while giving V&T all +3 (which is no stretch, because they are great at a lot of elements), and ignore things like Tatiana's slight two foots. I can see why S&S are going for greater base value, because it's more difficult to manipulate (though not impossible, if it's a close call as to level or degree of underrotation).
I don't like JCS muzak. I wish V/T had used JCS for the short (if they must) and the masq. waltz for the LP. I too have been disappointed with their choices.
But even though S/S are innovative, I haven't liked some of their programs either. I loved Pina though. Nutcracker, meh.
This depends on what OGM material means. If it means good enough to win the Olympics in Sochi, then yes, absolutely! In fact, had they skated to any music with no choreography and going end-to-end doing element after element clean on everything, I still doubt the judges will put them any lower than 1st no matter what any other team does.
Now, if OGM material means a high quality program that you are excited for and want to see win the Olympics and how it compares to past OGMs, then absolutely not, at least for me. The program is empty choreographically and transitions-wise, there are simple arm movements here and there but overall, lots of stroking in between the elements etc. But why change it when the judges are going to be gifting it with 9s and 9.5s on PCS anyways?
What saddens me is that this pair has the ability and skating skill to do so much more, yet this is the program they come up with.
I do still say that COP hurts pairs the most, though
I don't think this program to JCS is that good. I prefer their skating, they are my favourite team right now, but this program is not what I was expecting from them. That being said, if they perform it cleanly then the strength of their elements will probably get them the gold. But, it's early and maybe it will grow on me as they get comfortable with it over the season. I would love for them to have their moment and show how good they are, but this free is a disapointment right now. I think they are capable of much more. It is too empty.