Is there even the smallest chance of a clean Chan ever beating beaten

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Sep 22, 2013.

?

Any chance (no matter how small) of a clean Chan ever not winning

  1. yes

    33.3%
  2. no

    66.7%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    In your opinion do you believe there is any chance, even the tiniest one, that Patrick Chan could skate cleanly and ever lose a competition. I am not sure if there was any skater in history that was more unlikely to ever be allowed to be beaten by the judges going cleanly than him.
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I voted no as personal I have gathered from viewing competitions the last 3 seasons that 4 falls worth of mistakes (not neccessarily 4 falls per say, but 4 falls worth of mistakes) is the absolute bare minimum he would have to make for a completely spetacular 2 program effort from Takahashi, Kozuka, or Fernandez to beat him. Even that might be stingy and lower than reality.

    That is just my view though. I was wondering how others felt, and if there was amazingly even a tiny chance of clean Chan ever losing.
  3. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely not. In order to beat a clean Chan, his rival will need to have skating skills equal to or better than Chan's (impossible among current skaters), and will have to land 2 different quads, one would have to be a 4-3-3 combination, the other a 4Lz, plus a 3A-3t combination, each jump with a difficult entrance, with the highest levels of spins, footwork, and the politics in his favor.

    A comparable past situation was Michelle Kwan in 1998. Everyone thought that a clean Michelle was unbeatable. However, Tara's more difficult jump combination and the skating order was enough to beat Michelle who skated clean, but not as great as at the US nationals. The politics were not a factor, since both were from the USA. Earlier, in 1997 Michelle did lose when she made mistakes.

    I don't see an upset taking place in Chan's case, since even a mistake filled program did not cost him a win. I think both Chan and Kim are unbeatable if they skate clean.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2013
  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    An exceptionally small yes, with the right judging panel and a surpassing number of ratified technical elements.
  5. Antiloquy

    Antiloquy New Member

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    Any chance (no matter how small) of a clean Chan

    Full stop.
  6. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Good point.
  7. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    LOL. I didn't get it the first time I read this. :)
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well the poll results are a pretty strong consensus.
  9. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    A clean Chan is almost an oxymoron.
  10. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Clean Chan doesn't exist. However, there is not much chance of Chan with 4 falls not winning, so why there should be a chance of clean Chan not winning?
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I know we will never see a clean Chan and that is what makes it an interesting topic. We will never learn the answer for sure (although seeing top guys skate cleanly and lose to Chan with 4 falls would seem an obvious answer as a couple others noted, but I still was curious if a certain quotient with a broad perspective on things still saw a tiny possability or not).
  12. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I think Chan had skated clean in the GPF that was held in China, and also when he won his first WC.
  13. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Only if God himself were in the competition.
  14. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    At the GPF Vash is referring to, Chan underrotated the quad in the short program and had a royally botched triple axel in the long (two foot, both hands down). His Worlds 2011 was probably the closest to clean he's been but for the 3A stumble.
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Wow "yes" is now certain to reach double digits. Didnt expect that. You know SkateFan66 will be in at some point to vote "yes" and state "Evan Lysacek could beat a clean Chan", so that makes 10 votes minimum.
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I am surprised that there are so many 'yes' voters.
  17. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    If no one can beat him when he falls then no one will if he's clean
  18. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    Takahashi bested Chan along with 3 others during WTT LP, and Denis Ten beat Chan in 2013 World's LP.
  19. ciocio

    ciocio New Member

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  20. Primorskaya

    Primorskaya New Member

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    I really want to vote "yes", but that'd be wishful thinking. The poll question could just has well have been "Any chance of Chan ever being beaten, even with mistakes?"

    The only small glimmer of hope is that this is an Olympic year and more people than usual will be watching, therefore Chan winning olympic gold with 3 falls and one stumble, over, say, a clean Takahashi or Fernandez with high tech content might cause enough uproar that judges would think twice before letting that happen. Maybe maybe maybe...
  21. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    A clean Chan DESERVES to win! That is all.
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Losing a LP is meaningless, it is not losing a competition. If you are wearing the gold medal in the end you didnt "lose".

    In the two events you refer to only Takahashi beat Chen even with all his mistakes at the WTT, and nobody beat Chan even with all his mistakes at the 2013 Worlds.
  23. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    That's because Chan was so far ahead of everyone else after the SP. I don't remember there being an uproar about his SP mark at Worlds 2013. Several people did complained he's too far ahead to be caught up by anyone regardless of what happened in LP (and they were right) mostly because his main rivals faltered in the SP and Ten never really received those kind of marks before. Anyways I don't want to beat a dead horse, but it's silly to say Chan still wins with mistakes if others are squeaky clean. If he falls 3 times and other top tier skaters (Takahashi, Hanyu, Fernandez, Ten) are clean in both phases of the competition I would bet money against Chan to win. You are welcome to take that bet if you think otherwise.
  24. itoaxel

    itoaxel Member

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    Yes clean Chan can lose. Takahashi can beat clean Chan in PCS, Hanyu in GOE, and Fernandez in base value. Atleast if judging were fair clean Chan could lose by others going clean. He is not god, even if judges treat him like one many times.
  25. Primorskaya

    Primorskaya New Member

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    Sure. If his base value in both programmes is higher than anyone else's, and he skates them clean, then yes. Same goes for any skater.
  26. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    :lol:
  27. itoaxel

    itoaxel Member

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    His base values arent the highest though. Fernandez's are. If Chan were scored fairly there would be about 4 men who had chances to win if all were clean, and Chan with a fall could not ever win if someone else near the top skated perfectly. He isnt best in everything, the only thing he is best in are skating skills, transitions, and maybe footwork. The way the judges score him though he is given like a 3 fall atleast advantage on the others. It isnt fair and isnt accurate to what his true skating abilities are.

    Worlds last year was just embarassing. Hopefully the judges smarten up this year or figure skating will be out of the Olympics by 2018, and it will all be because of Chan.
  28. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: Thank you for the laugh, itoaxel.
  29. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    To answer the question "no"; Patrick Chan is going to be a two-time Olympic Gold Medalist in both Men and the Team Event. His name will be written with the greats ~ Gillis Grafstrom (2-time Olympic Gold Medalist), Karl Schafer (2-time Olympic Gold Medalist), Dick Button (2-time Olympic Gold Medalist). :hat1:

    Yes, I am a die hard Evgeni Plushenko Fan forever & always (& always have been), but I take my hat off to history and records being broken. :cool:

    Alas, Barbara Ann Scott's record is going to be broken, whereas she's been the only Canadian Singles Olympic Gold Medalist in history, now Patrick Chan will add his name to hers but for Men. :)

    Not to mention Canada will be the first country to win the gold in the brand new Team Event, which I'm most looking forward to!!!! I predict this event will overshadow the individual events in the future, just like it has in gymnastics. Jmho.
  30. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    If Chan wins the OGM with 3 or 4 falls, while a few others skate clean, I think the Russian media will get on his case and put the pressure on the IOC/ISU to award a few more gold medals (not that they will succeed :) )
  31. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Of course Chan did lose SC 2012 and the GPF 12/13 (nor did he win a single program at either event); Hanyu with three falls at Skate America 2012 scored 243.74. Chan with one fall at Skate Canada 2012 scored 243.43.
    spikydurian and (deleted member) like this.
  32. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont remember all the details but Chan had alot of mistakes at Skate Canada, besides that fall. More worth of mistakes over the two programs than Hanyu's 3 falls at Skate America which were his only mistakes in an otherwise flawless competition (which he still lost to one of the lower ranked Japanese IIRC).
  33. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think that by now the judges must have realized that Chan's error-laden wins are notorious and bad for skating. I think he is overdue for a PCS wakeup call. There is always the chance that he will skate easier programs this season or master all the difficulty WITH the jumps, but an Olympics win like his 2013 or even 2012 Worlds wins will make the hoopla around Evan's quadless win look like an evening at the ballet.

    If he does win, I just hope he does it convincingly (convincing fans and audiences as well as the judges).
  34. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    BTW, who do you guys think should win of a Chan with 2 falls or a clean Javier at the Olympics? My answer is Chan. I might not love to see another Urmanov-tic Olympic Champion (which is a good & charming skater and nice person but not a special skater, JMO).
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  35. Antiloquy

    Antiloquy New Member

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    Javier. At a competition of skaters at the same level, and with programs with the same content, the one who doesn't fall should win. If Javier falls and Patrick doesn't, the Patrick should win. If they both fall, then it should come down to other things. I can simply not believe that Chan's edge quality is so much better than every other extant male skater that it makes up for his often numerous mistakes. And I like Patrick.
  36. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Javi is hardly chopped liver, lol.
  37. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Is there any competition giving medals to the highest PCS winner, the highest GOE winner, and the highest BV winner? If so, it might not always be Chan. But overall, Chan will be the winner. Sorry about it.:p
  38. bek

    bek Guest

    Walei, Patrick's Pcs were ridiculous. He had the highest PCS in the free skate and he was a mess.
  39. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Which program are you referring to?

    If its the worlds, and I was there, Denis Ten had a clean but uninspiring skate. Patrick had a flawed skate that was brilliant in parts.
    He deserved every bit of PCS he got!
    There is a big difference between seeing him on TV and live.
    Hanyu is another skater that looks very different live.
    Takahashi has the same charisma live or on TV.
    spikydurian and (deleted member) like this.
  40. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Mmm . . . I think Patrick deserved some of the PCS he got.