Is Patrick Chan the most overscored and held up skater in history

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Mar 16, 2013.

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Patrick Chan- most held up and overscored skater in history, in any discipline

  1. yes

    216 vote(s)
    61.7%
  2. no

    134 vote(s)
    38.3%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Simple question, has there been any skater who receives as many inflated scores and is held up and gifted undeserved wins and results as often as Patrick Chan. Yes or no.
  2. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:
    OK, for you, he receives many inflated scores and is held up and gifted undeserved wins and results.
    As I don't agree with this statement, I won't answer your question.
  3. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Yes, JJ, there has been.
  4. Alixana

    Alixana recovering Oly-holic

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    Unfortunately I'm old enough to remember that, yes, there has been.
  5. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    Lol old predictable judgejudy.

    Just ask yourself why would the judges or the ISU collectively want to "hold up" Patrick so much. Why is he the poster boy of Men's skating or according to you, any figure skater of all time for the ISU to anoint him this supposed legendary status?? :rolleyes:
  6. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I can't answer this question because I have to admit I haven't seen all the performances of all the skaters in the history of figure skating but the difference between Chan's components mark of 89.29 and his technical mark of 82.13 in the free skate at Worlds feels more fair because it is more balanced than say Verner's 72.58/39.97 or Joubert's 82.28/65.81 or Takahashi's 85.00/70.36.
  7. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    hmmm that didn't take very long...
  8. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Well-Known Member

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  9. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Never change, judgeludy. I love your rants about Chan almost as much as the Lysacek ones.

    Not a Chan fan but this one didn't bother me too much. Last year upset me because Chan and Takahashi had virtually equal TES in the long and Chan got a blowout in PCS over another extremely talented skater. If Takahashi were the one getting the 5 point PCS spread he would have won.

    If I had to object to anything this year I would say Chan's SP score was a smidge high... his program was nearly perfect but he had to fight for the jump landings and that's not reflected very well in the score. But looking at the LP, his component score of 89.28 to Ten's 87.16 is very reasonable.

    I just think Chan did what he did well, well enough this time to keep him ahead. It's disappointing to see someone win that way because it's boring and I really don't like him, but I don't think it was a bad overscore.
  10. crzesk8dad

    crzesk8dad Active Member

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    He only won by a smidge.

    Two falls and two other screw-ups and still the World Champion...by a smidge. :rolleyes:
  11. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Chan lost the LP with his 2 falls. His overall win is due to the lead after the SP.
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  12. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Yeah when you look at it that way, Chan did lose overall by only 1.3, and I'm sure we could find 1.3 points to ding him in either the SP or LP to give it to Ten.

    Ten certainly did enough to win, and I would not object to his winning either. I just don't think it was highway robbery this time. At least it was close. It's no longer the days of Chan being 10-20 points ahead even with falls. I don't have the impression here that judges were working overtime to try to save Chan, cause it could've gone either way.
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    While both his SP and LP scores were exagerrated (SP by only a bit, LP by a ton, probably about 10 points).

    Anyway my prediction of 2 years ago that Chan doesnt even have to skate events, just show up to win them has proven to be correct all this time later. Last 2 Worlds skates like crap and wins over people who skate great. Why bother holding the mens event at the Olympics, mail Chan the gold medal, and save the time and extra energy holding 5 events, that way you can just hold 4 like it was before anyway with no point holding the mens which is pre ordained for Chan to win even if he sits on the ice for 4 minutes, LOL!
  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Judgejudy, the best would be to tell us where exactly his scores were exagerrated. TES ? GOE ? PCS ?
    What would you give for each element and PCS in the SP and in the LP ? ;)
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Possible reasons:

    1. The CSA has reached an even higher level of corruption and power than the so called big bad Russians had at their height of political influence in the 70s and 80s. Nobody dares to think that since Canadians are supposed to be so sweet and innocent.

    2. The judges today are skating skill crazy to the point that the skater who happens to be the best in that one aspect (skating skills) is somehow morphed into the minds of the skater skill obsessed judges of today that he is perceived to be 3 times better than the next best skaters in the World in every other aspect of the sport too, even when that is clearly not the case, thus giving the 7 or 8 fall cushion.

    3. Figure skating judges in general and the new COP even moreso pretty much suck anyway. Not exactly new news there.
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    All 3 of them. He does not deserve +3s in GOE for every element he does reasonably well like he gets. He did not deserve such high PCS for a LP with jarring falls and stumbles which severly interrupted the program. His performance and to some degree interpretation scores for his LP should have in fact been quite low.
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  17. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I'd love to skate reasonably well ! :lol:
    The problem is that, if you compare to the others, really his scores here are not that generous. The others made mistakes too.
  18. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    We may not all agree with last years worlds results but it was far from skating like CRAP! I'm not a Chan fan but I admire what he put out last year. Just two silly mistakes with the double axel at the end and the double sal, most other elements were flawless incl. 2 perfect quads and a triple axel.

    As for this year, I was in the stands and after Patrick skated everyone knew that he would be world champ because the other favourites were down in the short and had less than stellar long programs. Everyone around me including myself were praying that someone after him would take the title! Just so there would be a satisfying winner. Denis Ten skated great, and the judges literally did everything they could to give him the title, but in the end he just couldn't make up the 6-7pt deficit after the short, too bad he popped his 3F and had some poor landings. :(

    The result wasn't a total travesty, but it's too bad none of the major contenders brought it tonight. We really wanted a champions performance in London, at least we got Denis Ten.

    ETA: I meant last night not tonight :p
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  19. ratatouille

    ratatouille New Member

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    Definitely Yes!
  20. dlbarker

    dlbarker New Member

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    Carolina Koster. Enough hyperbole.
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  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Actually outside of the 2008 Worlds and the SP of the 2013 Worlds (which I dont believe will change the final result, whatever that may be, in the end) I dont believe Kostner has ever been held up or overscored. That is only two times in a decade long career. Amongst women the most held up skater of recent times is definitely Miki Ando, although still no rival to Chan in that regard.
  22. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Good heavens! Is it the off-season already? :confused:

    :summer:
  23. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    Is this the most redundant, tired, old, question/complaint in the history on figure skating? Chan doesn't score himself yet the hate directed towards him is just unbelievable.
    Unfortunately pretty much the whole men's event was a mess. Ten could have got it and it wouldn't have bothered me but be honest most of the contenders stunk the joint out at one point or another. What's a judge to do? Chan's not happy about it but what can he do? Accept it an move on. But it's abundantly clear to me that Chan could skate flawless and people would still find reasons to say he doesn't deserve it.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  24. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    Great post. I was there last night and can't add more to what you wrote.
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well last night give Ten the gold medal. Pretty obvious and pretty simple. Last year give Takahashi the gold medal at both Worlds and the GP final. Again pretty obvious and pretty simple. It doesnt have to be so complicated, it is the judges that are so desperate to invent new ways for Chan to win no matter how poorly he skates. :lol:

    Oh please, Chan is more than happy with it anytime he wins, even if he were to fall 20 times. Even remember his comment in the kiss and cry of Skate Canada where he again had a 4 fall competition and won over a very good Oda (who had 1 fall over the two programs)- the judges wanted to give me that score. His own exact words.

    No, that would be Kerrigan-Baiul, Kerrigan-Harding, all things Kwan, and a number of other things. However Chans biggest legacy in the sport after he retires will not be his titles and achievements, 70% of which are heavily tainted by judging outcries, but probably as the most held up and biggest judges pet, who fell the most on his behind of any multi champion in history. :lol: Someone like Sasha Cohen who was a stunning skater in everyway besides inconsistent jumps (and not great skating skills which is in contrast to Chan, but she blows Chan to bits in some other areas) couldnt win major events if Kwan, Slutskaya, or Arakawa skated well with so much as one fall. Yet in terms of consistency and not falling, she is even a Katarina Witt of competitors and consistent jumping in competition suddenly compared to Chan, just without the titles as every fall for her meant 15 times as much as every fall for Chan.
  26. boogazie

    boogazie Member

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    Wow, give the poor guy a break. I don't post very often here but from the few threads I've read from you it's clear that you have some sort of deep hatred towards the guy. It's okay to disagree with results but you've developed a really unhealthy approach.
    You're now going as far as making up stats (70% lol) to try and prove I don't know what.
  27. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    Yes just give it to them because you think so and that's all that matters and because your hatred for Patrick outweighs everything else.
    You honestly think Patrick is happy about this? Again blinded by hatred. If anyone pays attention by now it's obvious Patrick is not the most well spoken and articulate individual and sometimes things don't come out the way he intends. Even the interview on CBC news after this FS he stammered over his words and had to go back and try to correct himself because he knew he wasn't making himself clear. But everything someone says nowadays is taken at face value, ridiculed, picked apart and analyzed over and over again until it's twisted into something completely different. I think we all know in our own lives sometimes things don't come out right, or the way we intend but fortuately for us we don't have the world watching and a bunch of haters with their pitchforks ready to pounce.
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Actually pretty much everyone thinks so in both cases, hence why Chan and his victory were heavily booed in an almost never seen display at last years Worlds, and why he even his fellow skaters ripping him on twitter and EuroSport disgusted with his win last night. :lol: It is you who are in a seperate World if you think I am the only one who thinks it is extremely obvious and would have been extremely easy (and created absolutely no controversy at all with anyone, in heavy contrast to what the actual result did) to give those wins to the aforementioned far more deserving skaters. YOU are the one who asked what the judges should have done, and so I gave you an answer to your own question, so dont go on your high horse now that I gave a suitable answer. The poll results also speak for themselves.

    As for your nonsensical so called Chan hater rants, I havent even commented seriously on Chan in almost a year now. That sure is a long time for someone who supposably I have the biggest axe to grind with. As a skating fan I hate bad judging, regardless if it is a skater I enjoy or dont. In Chan`s case it is just a comical issue that is better to make into a comedic type topic of sorts since it has happened so many times in the past, and everyone knows he is a special case when it comes to bad judging, being held up, and all that is bad about COP, and his self entitled attitude (contrary to what BS poor Chan sorrow for someone who was just gifted his 3rd World title for a crappy skate you are trying to imply) for all he gets or is given.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  29. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. His GOE is OTT. He got higher GOEs for spins in the FS than Hanyu...by a fair margin too. That is just all sorts of baloney. Patrick has a great 4T and great step sequences that are worthy of +2s when he hits them well, but nothing else in his skating should be getting +2s or +3s IMO, and even his beautiful quads and quad combos and step sequences should really only be getting the occasional +3 if at all, +3 needs to be saved for things that are really, really special which for Chan is SOMETIMES his 4T and step sequences, never anything else. Besides the quad his jumps are just decent, when he even lands them properly, and the spins are good but not great. Looking at his spin GOEs, you'd think he was Stephan Lambiel...one judge gave him a +3 for his final 2a too which was somewhat shaky :duh:
  30. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    So you know everyone? Good for you. I haven't read his 'fellow skaters' ripping him so I can't comment only to say is it his fault he got these scores? Anymore than it's S/S fault they got the scores they did? FYI I'm not on my 'high horse' I'm just pointing out that 'people' (and I never said it was only you but this is the thread you created so..) have so much hatred for someone who has no control over what the judges do. Why not focus on them instead, because it's just easier to blame Patrick I guess. Denis Ten could've/should've won but he didn't, no one else helped their cause by skating like crap why not rip them for not'living up to their potential. Whatever I'm done.
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  31. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

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    Never mind.
  32. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

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    I agree. This judge jury has real issues with chan, sad.
  33. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    You mean judge judy.
    The judge jury has no issues with him ;)
  34. Triple Axel

    Triple Axel New Member

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    WORD. I couldn't have said that better. Some skaters fall once, and cannot even make it to worlds..others fall twice, and WIN. And the skaters in question fall much more beautifully than the hapless Chan. ;)

    What ever happeend to skating CLEAN?? If you continually fall on your wonderful, difficult 'program components', perhaps you are attempting a program that is too technically complex for you to be attempting to skate. Perhaps you should skate within your ability, recognise those limitations, and gear your program toward those. Oh. Wait....the program component score MUST be a score for what componenets are in your program...NOT how well you execute those compnenets. Now, I GET it...

    But..but..but...Gach... uh, never mind.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  35. znhurston

    znhurston Member

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    I don't know if Chan is the most over-scored skater in any discipline in the history of the sport but he is certainly the most consistently over-scored skater today! Don't get me wrong, I admire Chan's skating very much. At his best, as he was in the short program, he is divine. But there's something very wrong with a scoring system that rewards the guy who falls the most with a world championship!
  36. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Really?

    Can you tell me the rankings of the relative rankings of skaters in this particular Short Program:

    Skater #2:

    5.5 5.4 5.5 5.4 5.0 5.4 5.5 5.3 5.2
    5.3 5.3 5.5 5.2 5.2 5.3 5.2 5.4 5.3

    Skater # 5:

    5.4 5.4 5.2 5.0 5.0 5.3 5.0 4.9 5.3
    5.7 5.4 5.5 5.1 5.4 5.5 5.3 5.1 5.5

    Skater #10:

    5.5 5.4 5.5 5.4 5.0 5.4 5.5 5.3 5.2
    5.3 5.3 5.5 5.2 5.2 5.3 5.2 5.4 5.3

    Skater # 11:

    5.4 5.4 5.2 5.0 5.0 5.3 5.0 4.9 5.3
    5.7 5.4 5.5 5.1 5.4 5.5 5.3 5.1 5.5

    Skater #12:
    5.2 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.0 5.7 5.4 5.4 5.4
    5.6 5.8 5.6 5.8 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.5

    Skater #17

    5.1 5.4 5.3 5.2 5.0 5.4 4.8 5.1 5.2
    5.4 5.6 5.4 5.3 5.3 5.4 5.0 5.3 5.5

    Skater #27

    5.0 5.0 5.6 5.4 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.4
    5.1 5.3 5.6 5.1 5.0 5.3 5.4 5.0 5.4

    I'm not sure it can be done without knowing the marks of at least some of the other skaters in the competition, but for those looking for the answer, point your brower to
    Now tell me the rankings of skaters in this particular Short Program:

    Skater # 11 63.76
    Skater # 15 62.14
    Skater # 16 61.92
    Skater # 21 61.36
    Skater # 28 64.64
    Skater # 29 63.02
    Skater # 30 64.76

    I took these Total Segment Scores from here: http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG003.HTM

    :COP:
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  37. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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  38. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    I think the judges just have to go back change their approach. Even if a certain skater is worth 9's in the components, they shouldn't give them those components if they have a poor skate, they should be dinged there. It's not happening enough with the top guns like Patrick and Carolina (who are superior in skating ability to the rest, JUST talking about skating skills etc.).

    In the ladies today Carolina got higher components than Mao, this was clearly not the right way to do things based on how they skated. Caro's program is worth 9's, and I think in terms of skating she is superior to Mao, but the judges need to take into account the quality of the skate when they do those component scores. Therefore Carolina should have had lower components than Mao today since one clearly outskated the other. Hope I'm making sense! Been a long day here in London.
  39. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well the thing with Mao vs Carolina is Mao also had some glaring and disruptive mistakes, just as Caroline did.
  40. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    Yeah I know.

    It's just that in the building Mao had a champions performance that brought the crowd to it's feet, Carolina left the crowd confused and scratching their heads. The fall at the end just threw everything off. I didn't realize until these worlds how disruptive falls actually are.

    Don't get me wrong, I love both skaters, and I'm not trying to derail this. It was simply an example