Is it physically possible to land a clean quadruple axel in competition?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Jan 31, 2013.

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By which date will a clean 4A be successfully landed in competition?

Poll closed Mar 3, 2013.
  1. By 2015

    7 vote(s)
    10.6%
  2. By 2020

    17 vote(s)
    25.8%
  3. By 2030

    10 vote(s)
    15.2%
  4. By 2040

    2 vote(s)
    3.0%
  5. By 2050

    1 vote(s)
    1.5%
  6. Sometime beyond 2050

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Never - its not humanly possible

    29 vote(s)
    43.9%
  1. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Of course, anything is possible with the help of CGI, but is it physically possible to land a legitimate clean quadruple axel in competition? Or have we almost reached the limit of what is humanly possible in jump terms?

    In terms of the 6 types of jump, quad jumps have been accomplished in 3 of them in competition - the 4T (first - Kurt Browning: 1988 World Championships), the 4S (first - Timothy Goebel: 1998 JGPF), and the 4Z (first - Brandon Mroz: Colorado Springs Invitational 2011). Nobody, however, has yet landed a 4R, a 4F, or a 4A in competition. Daisuke Takahashi has attempted the 4F (e.g. 2010 Worlds FS, 2010/11 GPF LP), but they have either been deemed underrotated or downgraded. Konstantin Menshov has attempted a 4R in practice, whilst Kevin Reynolds recently attempted one in his SP at the 2012 BC Summerskate. Hence, its likely that the 4F and 4R will be successfully landed in competition at some point in the next 10 years. But what about a 4A? Is that a step too far, and does it take us beyond what is humanly possible?
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
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  2. ehdtkqorl123

    ehdtkqorl123 New Member

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    I don't think so. Just like there is no lady who does fully rotated 3A, there won't be a man who will be able to do fully rotated 4A.
  3. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Except for Midori Ito and Tonya Harding. :)

    I think someone will try to attempt it one day and I will be amazed when they do. But it is never going to be a mainstay of competiton like the quad has now become because you have to be a freak to be able to do it.
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  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Maybe if the skater is very tall, very thin, has a very deep step into the jump, and really goes for height rather than distance . . .

    . . . it would probably still be a 1/4 turn underrotated :shuffle:
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it will ever be done, no.
  6. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Fast, straight rotations plus distance covered will negate the lack of height in the multiple revolutions jump. I think a 4A is possible with a heavy pre-rotation on the ice on the skid edge take-off.
  7. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to say 2020. :) I think the skate boot may need a bit more tweaking but I totally believe it's possible. I'm sure there was a time even DOUBLE jumps weren't considered possible, the skate boot itself evolved and look at us now! :)
  8. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Exactly. Go back to 1970 and ask if men would be doing a quad lutz. You'd get a LOT of "that's physically impossible."
  9. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    And I am positive some men from earlier eras were at least trying quads in practices!

    Until I saw the practice video of 1960 Olympic Champ David Jenkins Triple Axel I had no idea that men were even attempting that jump prior to the '70's! Never mind in 1957! :rockstar::respec:. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone-but haven't skate boots advanced a great deal since David's time?

    To be sure-there are young men out there attempting quad axels in practices-here's Ryan Bradley's attempt -and here's another guy's (don't know his name) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e7rg1hNQIw and the same guy in real time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG_uc4O3DVE one day...
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  10. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    What, by 2050 there'll be genetically engineered humans?
    Or a dominant mutation takes over the population?
  11. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    Not that I mind or anything, but where did all this quad axel talk come from lately?
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    And it wasn't even caseyedwards that started the thread. :D
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  13. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    Ask Maofan who started the thread. :D
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  14. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Came across the CGI video (see post 1), and wondered whether we would ever see one for real one day, and whether it was even possible.
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    There was a time when people believed that the triple axel was an impossibility because it required 3 and a half rotations in the air.

    I don't see why someone could not land a quad axel some day in competition. It's a matter of when. I don't see it happening in 2015- that's just 2 years from now. However, 2020 is very possible. I am also guessing that in the next 7 years there will be improvements in boot designs which could help skaters trying this jump. However, I don't see anyone going for it for competitive advantage in a competition; it's more likely to get credit for 'first', like the quad lutz done by Brandon Mroz.
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    You must be very young. Midori and Tonya fully rotated the 3As routinely, just like the men did.
  17. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    If it is achieved, then it will be a bit like the 3A in Ladies, something that is deployed by a skater in competition only now and again with large gaps in between. That is, it will be a jump that only a very few skaters can do
  18. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    No unless we see a male version of Midori Ito. Or Midori and Elvis decided to have a baby together. Or Midori have a baby with a Japanese gymnast Uchimura.
  19. chantilly

    chantilly Active Member

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    I believe Kurt once said that he thought it would happen eventually but that would be it,i.e that is as far as it would go.
  20. aims

    aims New Member

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    I like that:lol:, although, alas, Kohei is already married;)
  21. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    I think it's an excellent poll and I'm having fun with it.

    The axel happens to be my favorite jump and I'm so happy I got to see Midori Ito nail the first one by ladies and Tonya Harding the first for American women. I hope to live long enough to see the day when the quad axel is nailed in an ISU sanctioned competition-and it will I'm sure of it! I might not live long enough to see a lady do it I grant-but you never know! :D

    Thank you. These kids! They really should study the history of figure skating! :lol:
  22. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Mmmm interesting scenarios. :)
  23. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Kurt Browning had a big triple Axel. Does anyone know if he attempted 4Axel at the practices ?
    Same with Petrenko or Kulik.
  24. black

    black New Member

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    If gravity remains the same, (objects falling with the same acceleration) then look to the rotation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum

    It even uses a figure skater as an example.

    Thus if you want a greater angular momentum (faster rotation) you need to bring more mass, more distance to the centre of axis.

    Assuming you don't have your arms lengthened, the solution would be to have weights (very securely) fastened to your wrists/hands.

    Practice this on a spinning office chair (preferably not with castors & slowly!!) bring your arms in, once empty, second with a water bottle in each hand, notice the difference?

    With more mass the rotation will be faster = more rotation for the same height jump.

    As Casey Carlyle would say, "Physics".

    The drawbacks would be controlling the increased acceleration. (And it will probably be banned by the ISU, if not already)
  25. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    FWIW, the 4A is actually in the code of points. Since they put it in and assigned a value to it, I'm thinking that it would not be banned by the ISU. I would think that using weights attached to you hands to achieve the 4A would be frowned upon though.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  26. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    It's been dicussed in other threads. The consensus among skaters and coaches (Stojko, Mishin) is that someone would have to develop a lighter skate with enough support.
  27. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    We have those black lighter blades now (forgot what they are called) but I know a competitive skater for whom they broke mid-season. :p
  28. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    4 Axel has a base value of 15 points and for an underrotated jump a base value of 10.5. Downgraded will go back to a 8.5 (value of 3A).
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think Midori Ito definitely could have done it. Not sure if there are any men who could have, maybe Brian Boitano, Kurt Browning, Alexei Yagudin, or a younger Evgeny Plushenko.
  30. black

    black New Member

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    No offence/offense intended by this post.

    Do you think there is still a degree of racism in figure skating that puts off some great athletes? (who might be able to land a 4A)
  31. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    Someone with Michael Jordan jump ability may do it?
  32. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I've often wondered if, at some point, skates will be made with springs to make more rotations more possible.
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  33. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yes (well other than for the 4A part because I don't think anybody will land it ever - unless there's some serious technological advances).

    And not just in skating but in life in general.

    And I don't just think. I can safely say that I know because we have a lot of psychological and sociological research to prove this is the case.
  34. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about racism, but for sure, in Figure Skating, money is a key that puts off some athletes.
  35. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    I agree it will be a man's version of Ito. She finished her 3A pretty high so it looked like there was room for another almost half rotation. So I can see a man getting there.
    However, I would see this NOT coming from a top skater, but rather from someone lower down who decides to put this in his bag as a trick shot just to maybe get to worlds because he has such great axel technique. Would be real hard to train all the other triples and quads and get your levels AND add this and not kill yourself.

    It would be someone with this rare ability who has little else to offer and therefore sees the risk as worth it.
  36. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    It's a tough call for me. Since ice is a hard surface and doesn't really give a bounce and aide with jumping, I'd say it all comes down to whether someone can develop enough force to hurl himself high enough into the air to complete the revolutions. Hard to tell because I have no idea how much room skaters have lef in regards to force when it comes to a 3axel.
    The question, I guess, is also what it does to a skaters health, how likely it is to succeed and if a skater considers the risks worth it.
  37. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I love how people say it has to be the male version of Ito to get that jump. I think that is a great compliment to Ito and the respect she has amongst skating fans.
  38. Screenie

    Screenie Active Member

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    Ryan Bradley's video above is a triple axel not a quad.
    The other skater is Keegan Messing and it's a quad attempt that's about 1/2 turn underrotated.

    I voted for by 2040 as I think it will take some boot improvements and those will take a while.
  39. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    There are quite a few different lighter blades now, almost every company is making a light version. (The biggest advantage is they hold a sharpening for WAY longer, at least to me where the weight doesn't matter.)

    Do many men wear Edeas? Those boots are much lighter than standard boots.

    I have a friend who is a long distance backpacker with 'ultra light' philosophy- she trims her shoelaces to the shortest possible length they can still tie, even cuts her hair before she goes. No extra weight at all. Would have to remove all the crystals from a skating costume- they weigh you down quite a bit.
  40. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

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    I remember an interview with Andrei Griazev who, btw., had an exquisite triple axel and in which he said that he would love to do a quad axel and was thinking about practising it. No idea if he actually did.
    And I think I have seen an off-ice video of Sergei Dobrin trying to do a quad axel on the floor.