Incredible Zayak article from 1983

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by skateboy, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    While surfing the net, stumbled on this one from Sports Illustrated in 1983:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1120506/index.htm

    Wow. Can't believe the title, he might as well have said, "Cow Beaten by Swan." Out of curiosity, I looked up these performances. Here's Elaine's:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QUaaxMC70

    And here's Rosalynn's:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09dsYvlZ1Io&feature=related

    I'm pretty shocked Elaine didn't win this long program. The puberty monster obviously hit her this season, but she did all kinds of things Rosalynn could never do. And Sumners didn't do all that much technically here, her spins were kind of weak, plus she had a fall.
     
  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    OMFG!!! Complete BS . . . if this was scored under the CoP . . . blah, blah, blah . . .

    BTW, I found Sumner's mother's remarks bitchy.
     
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am confused, it looks like Zayak did 4 triple toes, how could she do this with the Zayak rule already in place?

    I thought Sumners skated well other than the 1 fall. Better than her cautious Olympic skate. Zayak's artistry still wasnt very strong this year, it really improved in 84. She also looked overweight, very slow, and while she landed the jumps they all looked small other than the first couple. I had no problem with Sumners winning the LP and she would have won overall even if she hadnt won the LP.
     
  4. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Well, Roz did the same number of double axels in her program--maybe more...

    I'm not sure exactly when the Zayak rule went into place. I thought Sumners' LP was pretty weak compared to Zayak's. Elaine had lots more transitions, better spins (IMO) and much harder (and better performed) technical content, including a triple loop. Yes, I'd give Roz the nod for better held-out positions here and there. But overall Elaine gets my vote by a mile.
     
  5. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    I'm not sure but even in '84 Elaine had 3 triple toes in her LP but one was a triple toe walley IIRC and I always wondered if that was a loophole at the time. Anyone know?

    Anyhow considering she wasn't in shape Elaine still landed 2 triple toes, two triple toe walleys, triple loop and triple sal (hand down). She could've done triple axel out there and still wouldn't have won. She never did get what she deserved from the USFSA :rolleyes:

    I agree about Roz's Mom but also Borman comes out of that looking like a real piece of work too. :eek:
     
  6. aussieSKATES

    aussieSKATES Member

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  7. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I had issues in this '83 article with both Scott Hamilton and SI 'concerned that men's skating was becoming too effeminate...'

    :rolleyes:

    ETA - I just finished watching both ladies. Does anyone remember the marks? They weren't included in the video, but IIRC, Roz was given straight 5.9s for the 2d mark and the tech marks were pretty high, too. I personally would've given Elaine the tech marks and Roz the artistic mark.

    What surprises me 25+ yrs. later watching this again is that Roz really wasn't great with triple jumps - her money jump was the 2x [LOL]. She always seemed to have at least one off-balance landing on at least one triple in the LP. But, TPTB in the US loved her and her pretty princess image, and were not really fond of Elaine so Roz ALWAYS wins with them. It should have been closer. Elaine's jumps should've been rewarded more.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2010
  8. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    LOL. I can't believe Scottie's one piece was considered "controversial" by him.
     
  9. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I remember watching the 83 Nationals. Roz really was the better skater with the better overall package than Elaine back then. Roz's inside ina bauer into 2A was gorgeous, difficult and unique to her (Not sure why she didn't do that same move in 84). Her walley-2A at the final seconds of her LP was nothing to sneeze at. Dick Button enthusiastically commented that Roz was light and effervescent; I totally agreed.

    Elaine's stroking looked ponderous.

    I thought it was too bad that neither girl was in top shape at Sarejevo. Roz gained some of the weight back and Elaine didn't lose any since 83.
     
  10. zaphyre14

    zaphyre14 Well-Known Member

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    You have to consider the times. Scott's plain one-piece jumpsuit was a radical departure the costumes of the time. Take a look at what his competitiors were wearing - '80's glitter-rock styles had taken over and the Vegas showgirl look predominated. With his small physique, Scott must have felt overpowered by all that glitz.

    Also AIDS was hitting the world pretty hard and making headlines, the figure skating community was counting its losses and running scared. Taking the focus off the glitz and glamour and emphasizing the athleticism was a smart move for Scott. It certany didn't hurt his image and made the creation of Stars on Ice a lot easier for him down the road.
     
  11. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Actually, Elaine's weight went up to around 135lbs after her injury in Helsinki.

    She got back to a good skating weight by the 84 U.S. Nationals and lost some more by Sarejevo.
     
  12. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I only saw three (I think the first jump was a triple salchow, but it was hard to tell exactly what she did with her feet).

    I seem to remember reading a clarification of the new rule published at the time that said that 3T+3T and solo 3T would be legal as it was then understood, so maybe there were some other differences or differences in understanding at first compared to how the rule is currently enforced.

    Or maybe she got a deduction for too many 3T and that's why she didn't win.
     
  13. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    It's a triple toe walley from what I can tell. That's interesting regarding the loophole you remember reading about as Midori Ito did 2x-3t and 3t-3t at 1984 Worlds with clearly no deduction from the judges so it must have been allowed at the time.
     
  14. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    BTW, in comparison to Elaine's Layback Spin, Roz had a hideous leg position . . . which Uncle Dick said nothing about, although he highlighted the improvement in Elaine's leg position :rolleyes:

    . . . I bet he was told that Elaine had been dumped.
     
  15. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    This confirmed a great deal of what I'd always wondered about; and could be a cautionary tale for today's skaters.

    Poor Elaine!
    She was victimized, in many ways.
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Even as late as 1992 Nancy Kerrigan was attempting 3 triple toes in her long program (well in theory as she pretty much always popped atleast one) but with 1 of them being a toe walley. So regular triple toes and toe walleys must have a distinction that allows you to do more triple toes this way.
     
  17. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    I don't think there is a distinction now, it's just regarded as an entry variation much like a mohawk instead of a 3-turn into a triple flip or triple sal for example although I could be wrong on this.

    I learned the toe loop the conventional way in the short time I skated as a kid which obviously takes off from a back outside edge but I'm sure I read some old skating tome which mentions that a toe walley takes off from a back inside egde? Also confusing the issue was the European habit of calling a toe loop a cherry flip :lol:
     
  18. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    What a sharply written article. I mean the attitude everywhere! And it's by E.M. Swift.
     
  19. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    The distinction between a toe loop and a toe walley is SUPPOSED to be similar to the flip and the lutz. With a flip you take off from an inside edge; a lutz from the outside edge.

    A "loop" is back outside edge to back outside egde, hence the term "toe loop," when done as a toe jump. A "walley" is back inside edge to back outside edge, so a "toe walley" takes off from a back inside edge, landing on a back outside edge.
     
  20. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

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    Roz comes across as an ignoramus, and her mother and coach as witches.

    I loved this quote from Roz: "With fad diets you lose the fat between the muscle and the bone, which is called adipose. That's the fat you want. Don't laugh, I want to tell you this. What I lost is that other kind, the fat you don't want."

    Um, okay? Clearly Roz is now well acquainted with adipose so maybe she realizes it's all the same. But it shows you that athletes should not really delve into topics that require some knowledge or education unless they've actually studied it.

    The whole quote about Roz's mom saying that NOW all of a sudden they want to talk to Roz even though she's been competing as long as Elaine just wreaks of skatemom from hell. Elaine accomplished a hell of a lot more than Roz up to that point. But skatemom couldn't possibly rationalize that.
     
  21. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Thank you, that's exactly what I thought. But the current system certainly doesn't recognise this and I would be interested to know if there was a commonly held distinction between the two jumps and when exactly they 'merged' them? By that guideline, Zayak was never in violation of the Zayak rule I don't think. :lol:
     
  22. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I think at some point in the 1980s they did make a decision to explicitly consider toe loop and toe walley the same for purposes of that rule. But that may have been later than 1983, which was the first year of the rule.
     
  23. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Is a walley the same as a waltz?
     
  24. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    No, a waltz is a half revolution jump from forward to backward.

    A Walley is the same as a loop, only taking off from a back INSIDE edge (rather than outside).
     
  25. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    The toe-loop and toe-walley became one jump, because the majority of skaters during the 80s that were supposedly doing toe-wally were really taking off from an outside edge.

    A ccw skater normally enters a toe-walley from a left forward outside 3, switch skating leg so that the right leg is now the skating leg and is on an inside edge, and the left leg pick behind to vault into the jump. However, if you look closely at the skating leg after the leg switch, 99.9% ofthe skater remained on an oustide edge. I have to take a look at Elaine's toe-walley in slow motion to make sure, but I don't think she ever did a true toe-walley.
     
  26. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    This is such a sad article. She only took up skating to rehab her foot, which was half cut off by lawn mower, then years later she is being pushed around by her parents because of her weight during a growth spurt because they wanted her to be a 1 and 1/2 footed World Champion Figure Skater :huh: . . . even when she could still do the triple jumps and improve her spins, it was not enough :confused:
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2010
  27. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    One thing that does strike me is how pro Sumners that Peggy Fleming is. I think Fleming was devastated when Sumners didnt win the Olympic Gold in 84. Fleming is so cold to Elaine. The way she talked about her in her book was horrible.

    I would need to see the scores of the LP to see if they were fair. I would probably have scored them like this though:

    Zayak- technical 5.8, artistic 5.7
    Sumners- technical 5.7, artistic 5.9

    I would have put Sumners ahead in the LP but it is close.
     
  29. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Roz's inside edge Ina Bauer into the 2A was more difficult than the more common outside edge IB-2A that Tiffany did. I've not seen anyone else performed Roz's move since 83.
     
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  30. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you. Elaine should've had the technical edge [the 3t - 3t seq., nice layback, and the beautiful 3loop midway thru the LP in early '83 is noteworthy] with Sumners winning out on the artistic mark. Do you recall the tech marks in the competition? I seem to remember that it wasn't close...