In what ways has CoP IMPROVED skating?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Blair, Dec 4, 2010.

  1. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Do you honestly think any of those skaters would have come back or continued after Plushy through his hat in the ring? Without someone acknowledged as a true rival, the gold would have been his. But COP let the men feel that they had a chance. THAT is why there was so much depth at the Olympics, and a US men's nationals, imo.

    Under 6.0, judges could "retire" you. Now this power has been cut almost in 1/2. That's a good thing.
     
  2. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    True.
    But still - under 6.0 there would be no chance for Virtue&Moir, Davis&White to medal at the Olympics or at Worlds on V&M second attending as seniors.

    I do agree that pars are devastatingly boring to watch under CoP. Very few pairs can actually deliver complex programs that are put together to flatter the system.
     
  3. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I think the mens' programs are much more interesting. It's not just skate to one end of the rink, do a 4-3, skate to the other end, do a 3A, you get the picture. I think the dancers have had to really improve the quality of their technical skating skills, too. Before CoP, if one partner was weak, it could be hidden.
     
  4. Allen

    Allen Glad to be back!

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    For me, dance is where I see the most improvement.
     
  5. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Pairs is the worst.
     
  6. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    YES! Our juvenile, intermediate, and novice skaters have become so much better with the implementation of CoP. These levels are so much more competitive than they were ten years ago.
     
  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    From a skater, coach and judge perspective, the majority think IJS is a big improvement to the way skating is judged. The protocols are really appreciated and help with the learning process.

    From a skater perspective, the skaters love that their elements get GOEs. They understand it. You can also tell them why you have given them particular components and break it down for them. Before with 6.0 it was evaluated by two marks that basically placed them and didn't tell them anything about what they did. Skaters are also looking for PBs to tell them if they are improving.

    For coaches, they also can get better feedback about their skaters. I know a few who were very cynical to start with, but they have come to appreciate it. They get information about what areas their skaters need to improve on.

    From a judging perspective, as someone who didn't have to judge 26 Intermediate Ladies under 6.0 who would all be pretty much the same standard, it is a blessing. You judge what you see and each element as it comes. You don't have to justify why you put such and such a skater in a particular place because the computer does it for you. However as a judge you also get feedback on your performance as you can compare what you gave to the other judges and learn from that. You also get an opportunity to reward good elements or PCS which you couldn't under 6.0.

    Downsides of IJS?

    Well the number of people required to run an event has certainly grown and it is requires a lot of skill and knowledge for even just the data entry people. Skating is an incredibly technical sport and thus requires a lot of training and knowledge development for it operate. It places greater demands on the volunteer workforce. But in the end can be very rewarding and provide an opportunity to develop new skills and knowledge.

    It is also a lot less environmentally sustainable with the amount of paper and electricity you use to run an event.
     
  8. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Good points, Aussie Willy.

    The main thing I don't like about COP, at least for singles and pairs, is that most of the programs don't look all that great (IMO). Choreography is a problem, due to all the requirements. I think programs were more indvidual and enjoyable to watch under 6.0. I wish the same could happen under CoP.
     
  9. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Comparing an ordinal system to numeric, of course the second is better, since the marks are absolute and not just placements. Plus all the reasons written in the above message. They just need to improve some rules, like the 3 jump combo as mentioned before that everyone adds a 2toe at the end of everything and some more, I dont like in CoP that the skater cant really correct a jump mistake later and the ghost sequences/combos and get marked for something they didnt actually do.
    Many members here have written quite clever adjustments in details but whenever they change the rules non of these proposals are in.
     
  10. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    The only improvement I see is edge calls on flutzes. I almost mentioned under-rotations, but am ambivalent. Too many times an apparently clean performance that gets a standing O is penalized for something the caller saw on a slow-mo replay. I do think that skaters should be penalized if they cheat their jumps, but perhaps it should be left up to the judges to make the call on GOE. When a skater routinely cheats, it will become known and the judges will look for it. Baseball still depends on the naked eye. Why can't figure skating?
     
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    What small things do people miss from 6.0 exactly?

    I just can't bear to watch any 6.0 programs anymore, they make me :wall:.

    CoP resulted in skaters paying attention to all the details. They have to make effort on all of the elements now.

    And the concepts of transitions, choreography, etc. were finally verbalised and operationalised. Which translated to at least some of the skaters making effort with their programs.

    In other words, everything improved. Yay for IJS! :cheer:

    Most programs had even weaker choreography before IJS was introduced.
     
  12. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    And North Americans can now win in ice dancing.
     
  13. Allen

    Allen Glad to be back!

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    I was flabbergasted at the quality of the women's novice event at nationals last year. I was expecting to see a few 3t and 3s, but instead I saw a few 3z and a really high quality of skating. It's sad though, that the winner of that event, Leah Keiser didn't even qualify for Nationals this year. That said, I'm really excited for the junior ladies event because of all the talent.
     
  14. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this.

    I think many people who think the choreo was better remember the artists and the masterpieces under 6.0 and not all the mediocre ones or the ones that won because of jump content with not so much else.
     
  15. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I agree that CoP doesn't help Pair skating !
    In fact, it's already very difficult to see beautiful simple pair spins (such as Scwarz&Muller side by side camel spin). Now, we rarely see good spins with change of edge...
    Idem about Lifts and death spirals.

    With CoP, pair skaters need to be very good at single skating, which is not always the case ! ;)
     
  16. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    I don't know about that. This program had difficult jump entries and nice edgework and it's definitely pre-CoP!

    In all seriousness, though, as a skater I like that you get useful feedback on your performances. As a viewer I don't like the cookie cutter sameness of programs, although I do think the spin and spiral rule changes for this year have gone a long way in fixing that problem.
     
  17. jtpc

    jtpc Active Member

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    I like how it has helped skaters realize that they need to be well rounded in their skills and strong at everything. I like that each jump, spin or footwork sequence is awarded difficulty and quality points...because everything gets a point value, skaters know they need to improve their weaknesses in order to be competitive. Under the 6.0 system, jumps, spins and footwork sequences all had to be lumped under one technical merit mark...and since I think it's safe to say the jumps mainly drove that mark, it was easier to hide a weakness in another area and not really have it factor in (as long as you were a strong jumper). Now your skills need to be well rounded because everything counts for points.
     
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  18. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Ladies' World and Olympic medalists are young women instead of little girls. :cheer2: COP seems to favor all-around mature skaters more over jumping beans. The most noticeable benefit is the increased complexity in footwork sequences. This is my favorite change as a result of COP. I also really like how ice dancing has become more of an athletic event under COP. I miss the simplistic beauty of 6.0 era spins though. Some of the COP spins are so fugly. :scream:
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  19. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Spins may have included more revolutions, but many are revolutions in really ugly positions ("Ooh, I've got an owie on my knee," "If I yank hard enough I know I will be able to get that skate up into a Belimann," and the ever-popular "going really slowly in circles" outside spin.)

    The way COP spins are judges, skaters get a lot more points for messy change of position spins than they do for fast, centered, beautifully stretched and executed spins, so I would disagree that COP has improved spins.

    And the COP footwork sequences all too often (Takahashi aside) end up looking like people wandering in the wilderness looking for lost contacts on the ice. The pairs footwork sequences are even worse.
     
  20. shiningstar

    shiningstar New Member

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    I don't think the benefits of COP have been fully realized yet. I think in a few years when new coaches who have only coached under COP rear students who have only known COP, then we will see the full range that COP has. Right now, there are still so many coaches and choreographers out there who have worked under 6.0 for the vast majority of their careers. It can't be easy for them to switch their teaching methods to more COP-friendly elements and programs.
     
  21. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    ^ I agree with this. We are not fully out of the generation of 6.0 yet. The young ones coming up are the ones who will reap the full benefits of CoP.
     
  22. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    Things aren't bad under CoP. I had the same impression as you, after watching CoP for a few years and then going back to the older performances. The older performances seemed so bare and empty, skaters just kind of stroking around with their arms out not doing much in between elements...

    But then there are a few things that we don't really see anymore, like split jumps/falling leafs and really fast, if simpler, spins. Also, I kind of notice figure skaters repeating the same transitions over and over again even if there is no direct choreographic relevance...and that difficult jumps tend to occur close to the very beginning of the program, and then again right after the halfway mark.

    So, I agree with many that the CoP has promoted more detail-oriented programs, and stronger technical progress. However, I feel that overall program/coherent choreography has regressed. I guess I will have to wait for the system to keep tweaking itself, and for skaters to evolve with it. :)

    Really great points.

    Well, yes... but out of curiosity, which CoP programs would you consider masterpieces thus far, if any? Granted, it's a newer judging system and we might need to wait a while, but the years spanning 1996-2002 were amazing compared to 2004-2010.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  23. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone is going to reap the full benefits of COP until judges start using the full range of marks on technical elements -- giving high grades to extremely well done Level 1 elements, for example -- and significantly varying component scores based on what is seen on the ice during the actual competition. Unfortunately, the "corridor" nonsense rather strongly discourages this, and we still see a huge amount of protocol judging.
     
  24. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    Not to cop out or anything (haha = no pun intended!) but I think I am going to start a thread asking this exact question. But masterpiece may be too strong a word - maybe outstanding or memorable or possibly even Masterpiece?

    I will also come up with my own answers!
     
  25. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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    I agree about how CoP has probably done the most damage to pairs, especially when it comes to death spirals (example: http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/11/death-to-catchfoot-death-spiral.html)
     
  26. stanhope

    stanhope Active Member

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  27. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

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  28. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Most of what I like about COP has been covered. Re: scoring, I love the fact that a less-than-perfect sp won't bury a skater..none of that so-and so has to beat so-and-so for so and so- to win. A skater controls his/her own destiny , assuming that the judging is fair.
     
  29. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Agreed; however, I personally have never liked the death spiral as a skating element under 6.0 or COP. To me, it's just not an attractive looking element; it deserves a place on the skating wall of shame next to Sasha's beaver flash I-spin. :scream: I dislike how so often it appears that the guy is going to fall over when he is in the pivot position while sluggishly struggling to circle his partner around him while she maintains a lifeless looking pose. It's easily my least favorite pairs element.
     
  30. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Ok, i'll give you that CoP has given rise to some fugly positions and changes, but wouldn't you agree that the depth of overall great spinners has gone up tremendously since pre-CoP?

    In the past you could look at top ten at worlds and there would have only ever been 2 or 3 really credible spinners in the singles events. Now almost the entire top 10 in singles have great spinning ability.

    2003 worlds for example (if you look further back it gets worse), Sandhu, Klimkin and Lambiel would have been considered gifted spinners...the rest were all so-so. The reverse is true today. Only Van der Perren, Brezina and Joubert would be considered so-so spinners in the worlds top ten, the rest are great (IMO, of course).