In what ways has CoP IMPROVED skating?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Blair, Dec 4, 2010.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    What small things do people miss from 6.0 exactly?

    I just can't bear to watch any 6.0 programs anymore, they make me :wall:.

    CoP resulted in skaters paying attention to all the details. They have to make effort on all of the elements now.

    And the concepts of transitions, choreography, etc. were finally verbalised and operationalised. Which translated to at least some of the skaters making effort with their programs.

    In other words, everything improved. Yay for IJS! :cheer:

    Most programs had even weaker choreography before IJS was introduced.
  2. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    And North Americans can now win in ice dancing.
  3. Allen

    Allen Well-Known Member

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    I was flabbergasted at the quality of the women's novice event at nationals last year. I was expecting to see a few 3t and 3s, but instead I saw a few 3z and a really high quality of skating. It's sad though, that the winner of that event, Leah Keiser didn't even qualify for Nationals this year. That said, I'm really excited for the junior ladies event because of all the talent.
  4. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this.

    I think many people who think the choreo was better remember the artists and the masterpieces under 6.0 and not all the mediocre ones or the ones that won because of jump content with not so much else.
  5. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I agree that CoP doesn't help Pair skating !
    In fact, it's already very difficult to see beautiful simple pair spins (such as Scwarz&Muller side by side camel spin). Now, we rarely see good spins with change of edge...
    Idem about Lifts and death spirals.

    With CoP, pair skaters need to be very good at single skating, which is not always the case ! ;)
  6. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    I don't know about that. This program had difficult jump entries and nice edgework and it's definitely pre-CoP!

    In all seriousness, though, as a skater I like that you get useful feedback on your performances. As a viewer I don't like the cookie cutter sameness of programs, although I do think the spin and spiral rule changes for this year have gone a long way in fixing that problem.
  7. jtpc

    jtpc Active Member

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    I like how it has helped skaters realize that they need to be well rounded in their skills and strong at everything. I like that each jump, spin or footwork sequence is awarded difficulty and quality points...because everything gets a point value, skaters know they need to improve their weaknesses in order to be competitive. Under the 6.0 system, jumps, spins and footwork sequences all had to be lumped under one technical merit mark...and since I think it's safe to say the jumps mainly drove that mark, it was easier to hide a weakness in another area and not really have it factor in (as long as you were a strong jumper). Now your skills need to be well rounded because everything counts for points.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  8. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

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    Ladies' World and Olympic medalists are young women instead of little girls. :cheer2: COP seems to favor all-around mature skaters more over jumping beans. The most noticeable benefit is the increased complexity in footwork sequences. This is my favorite change as a result of COP. I also really like how ice dancing has become more of an athletic event under COP. I miss the simplistic beauty of 6.0 era spins though. Some of the COP spins are so fugly. :scream:
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  9. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Spins may have included more revolutions, but many are revolutions in really ugly positions ("Ooh, I've got an owie on my knee," "If I yank hard enough I know I will be able to get that skate up into a Belimann," and the ever-popular "going really slowly in circles" outside spin.)

    The way COP spins are judges, skaters get a lot more points for messy change of position spins than they do for fast, centered, beautifully stretched and executed spins, so I would disagree that COP has improved spins.

    And the COP footwork sequences all too often (Takahashi aside) end up looking like people wandering in the wilderness looking for lost contacts on the ice. The pairs footwork sequences are even worse.
  10. shiningstar

    shiningstar New Member

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    I don't think the benefits of COP have been fully realized yet. I think in a few years when new coaches who have only coached under COP rear students who have only known COP, then we will see the full range that COP has. Right now, there are still so many coaches and choreographers out there who have worked under 6.0 for the vast majority of their careers. It can't be easy for them to switch their teaching methods to more COP-friendly elements and programs.
  11. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    ^ I agree with this. We are not fully out of the generation of 6.0 yet. The young ones coming up are the ones who will reap the full benefits of CoP.
  12. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    Things aren't bad under CoP. I had the same impression as you, after watching CoP for a few years and then going back to the older performances. The older performances seemed so bare and empty, skaters just kind of stroking around with their arms out not doing much in between elements...

    But then there are a few things that we don't really see anymore, like split jumps/falling leafs and really fast, if simpler, spins. Also, I kind of notice figure skaters repeating the same transitions over and over again even if there is no direct choreographic relevance...and that difficult jumps tend to occur close to the very beginning of the program, and then again right after the halfway mark.

    So, I agree with many that the CoP has promoted more detail-oriented programs, and stronger technical progress. However, I feel that overall program/coherent choreography has regressed. I guess I will have to wait for the system to keep tweaking itself, and for skaters to evolve with it. :)

    Really great points.

    Well, yes... but out of curiosity, which CoP programs would you consider masterpieces thus far, if any? Granted, it's a newer judging system and we might need to wait a while, but the years spanning 1996-2002 were amazing compared to 2004-2010.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  13. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone is going to reap the full benefits of COP until judges start using the full range of marks on technical elements -- giving high grades to extremely well done Level 1 elements, for example -- and significantly varying component scores based on what is seen on the ice during the actual competition. Unfortunately, the "corridor" nonsense rather strongly discourages this, and we still see a huge amount of protocol judging.
  14. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    Not to cop out or anything (haha = no pun intended!) but I think I am going to start a thread asking this exact question. But masterpiece may be too strong a word - maybe outstanding or memorable or possibly even Masterpiece?

    I will also come up with my own answers!
  15. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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    I agree about how CoP has probably done the most damage to pairs, especially when it comes to death spirals (example: http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/11/death-to-catchfoot-death-spiral.html)
  16. stanhope

    stanhope Member

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  17. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

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  18. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Most of what I like about COP has been covered. Re: scoring, I love the fact that a less-than-perfect sp won't bury a skater..none of that so-and so has to beat so-and-so for so and so- to win. A skater controls his/her own destiny , assuming that the judging is fair.
  19. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

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    Agreed; however, I personally have never liked the death spiral as a skating element under 6.0 or COP. To me, it's just not an attractive looking element; it deserves a place on the skating wall of shame next to Sasha's beaver flash I-spin. :scream: I dislike how so often it appears that the guy is going to fall over when he is in the pivot position while sluggishly struggling to circle his partner around him while she maintains a lifeless looking pose. It's easily my least favorite pairs element.
  20. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Ok, i'll give you that CoP has given rise to some fugly positions and changes, but wouldn't you agree that the depth of overall great spinners has gone up tremendously since pre-CoP?

    In the past you could look at top ten at worlds and there would have only ever been 2 or 3 really credible spinners in the singles events. Now almost the entire top 10 in singles have great spinning ability.

    2003 worlds for example (if you look further back it gets worse), Sandhu, Klimkin and Lambiel would have been considered gifted spinners...the rest were all so-so. The reverse is true today. Only Van der Perren, Brezina and Joubert would be considered so-so spinners in the worlds top ten, the rest are great (IMO, of course).
  21. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the quality of spins improving. Even young skaters work really hard on their spins and throughout an event you will get a generally good standard of spinning.
  22. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Mafke made a good point saying that a well executed easier element shouldn't necessarily be worth less than a badly executed harder element.

    But the problem is that then people are not going to take risks.

    It's a hard balance to maintain. IJS obviously hasn't got it right but it's constantly being tweaked in response to the effects it produces.

    Because the naked eye is not able to notice by how much a jump was cheated.

    And figure skating is such a complex sport that being able to repeat certain elements to check everything helps immensely (was a variation maintained for enough rotations, was that difficult position held long enough, etc.).
  23. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Well you can notice how much a jump is underrotated, but it can depend on factors like distance from the skater.

    Figure Skating is a very complex sport and incredibly technical. It is not like setting a stop watch and pressing the button when the person reaches the line. There is so much to evaluate and consider.
  24. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I find myself horrified by the number of crossovers I see when I watch programs from the 6.0 era, even by the top skaters of the time. The value placed on transitions, choreography and skating skills under IJS has really upped the level of the actual skating at all levels of competition.

    I agree that spins have gotten better under IJS as well. Some of the positions may not appeal to some people and it's true that the difficult variations can slow a spin down, but the fact is, a skater has no chance of completing a spin with difficult variations unless he/she is first able to execute a spin in a basic position with speed and good technique. Now that the rules are rewarding 8 revolutions in position and there is no incentive to do a difficult variation more than once, we are seeing more basic positions held for many revolutions, which just goes to prove how IJS has helped everyone's basic spins as well.

    As a skater, I appreciate IJS because I can actually see what the judging panel liked and didn't like about my skating, where I am losing points and how I can add points. It sure beats skating under 6.0, where I've often wondered if the judges just didn't like my dress or something. Now if the ISU can just decide what the heck they want to reward so they can stop changing the !@$%&* rules every season!!
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  25. RobinA

    RobinA New Member

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    Funny, I have the exact opposite reaction. I come away going, "What the hell just happened?"
  26. RobinA

    RobinA New Member

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    I.e. certain Chinese pairs with females who can barely skate but do land big throws.
  27. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    YES!!!

    Could you imagine impact of cumulative COP scoring on the 2002 ladies SP?

    My point is not how would it have changed the elements skaters selected, but with so many ladies going clean, so many skaters would have felt they had a chance for the bronze.
  28. theshrew

    theshrew New Member

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  29. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    The factored placement system still in use in 2002 was just a by product of the figures era when it was fairer than ordinals. After (quite wrongly!) dumping figures they should have gone back to ordinals but institutional inertia got in the way...
  30. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Ordinals were always used.

    Up until 1980, the judges scored each figure separately and then scored the free skating (and for 1973-1980, the short program too). Rankings could be calculated within each competition phase (e.g., skater Q won the short program), but those rankings didn't count for anything in the final calculations.

    The actual scores for each figure and for each program were each multiplied by a factor, the totals from each judge were added up for each skater, and then those totals determined the ordinals for the competition as a whole.

    After 1980, and until the end of the 6.0 system, the actual scores counted only to produce ordinals to decide rankings for each phase of the competition (figures, SP, FS). Then the scores and ordinals for that phase no longer had meaning and only the rankings counted toward the factored placements.

    Confusing, I know. I haven't memorized all the details.

    There was always an ordinal system. The differences are at what point in the calculations the factors got applied and what they got applied to (actual scores or rankings), and whether there was one set of ordinals for the whole event or separate sets for each competition phase.
  31. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    I actually thought that the system until 1980 was each part of the competition (including each separate figure) was scored separetly and the point totals (after the confusing math had been applied) for each skater were tracked by judge and the final result was determined by 'places' (how the final standards are tracked at Winter Memories)

    So that a 'perfect' score would be 9 (the skater had the most point totals for each of the nine judges and got 1 point each - where you want the fewest points possible)

    That's why Hoffmann at Lake Placid had more points than Cousins (Which is good) but also more places 15 to 13 (which is bad because the places were what counted) I assume raw point totals were used in case of ties in places.

    Because of differences in scoring protocals for figures that was an unsatisfactory system so it was moved to the 1980-1990 system which worked much better.

    Be all that as it may, my point was that after figures were no more, they could and probably should have gone back to something like the pre-1980 system which would have produced on balance more interesting competitions since more people would be in the hunt for the podium after the SP.
  32. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Those points by judge that are labeled "Places" on the Winter Memories site ARE the ordinals, for each phase of the event (had only interim meaning) and for the event as a whole. The reason they're called "places" instead of "ordinals" might be an effect of translating to Japanese and back to English.

    I can't tell from the way they're listed exactly how the calculations are done.

    For the ice dance, Bestemianova/Bukin got
    Places 9 9 7 8 9 10 7 8 8 75
    Their total points were 188.18

    Smith/Summers got
    Places 8 7 9 9 7 8 9 9 9 75
    with total points 188.38

    The numbers I put in bold are equivalent to the TO (total ordinals) statistic we're familiar with from later versions of the ordinal system, where it was the third tiebreaker.

    So did the accounting first take the total ordinals and if there was a tie as there was here then look at the total points and ignore the majorities?

    Or did they first look for majorities -- in this case B/B had 5/8 and S/S had 9/9 -- and determine 8th place on that basis without having to go to any tiebreakers, as would be done for each phase of competition in later versions?

    The way the scores are presented here suggests the former method, but my understanding was that it was the latter.

    Here if they go to the total ordinal or total "places" number first Cousins wins because he had a lower total.

    But if they looked at majorities first, Cousins also wins because he had a majority of six 1st-place ordinals (6/1) and Hoffman only had three 1s, so his majority was 9/2.

    The results would almost always be the same by either method except in very weird types of close decisions where the order of tiebreakers makes a difference.

    Sort of like the difference between majority and OBO scoring in the late 90s. Most results would come out the same, but some with very mixed ordinals would end up different.

    Fair enough. :)
  33. withrespect

    withrespect New Member

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    IMO....improvements:
    coaches like the cop system better
    skaters like the cop system better
    ^^^^^ gives them a 'report card' ^^^^
    major improvement in footwork sequences
    improvement of 'transitions'

    Disadvantages:
    More arm chair critics think they know more and have instant technical (how to judge)knowledge:rolleyes:
    NO CREATIVITY
    ALL about points
    Hundreds of skaters doing the exact same spins, same entries etc.
    Boring at the lower levels (under senior).
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  34. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    I think yes and no here. Definitely more difficulty than pre-COP (Yagudin anyone?) but sometimes the difficulty is so great that the skaters cannot perform them with good flow. Personally, I do not like the stops and starts and often odd meanderings of some of the footwork that we see now - nor to I appreciate the flailing arms that are oftem deemed necessary to get the higher levels.
  35. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't there recently a big deal in baseball where a bad call cost a pitcher a perfect game? And the ref even admitted it was a bad call, and so did the other team- and the commissioner of baseball could have overturned the result, but he didn't? Something like that happening again and baseball won't still depend on the naked eye. (Football already doesn't).

    Sports shouldn't be judged by the naked eye- there is a story in some book (maybe Christine Brennan's?) about a judge that awarded marks like 2 points higher than the other judges (under 6.0)- turns out, he had dropped his pencil and was looking down when the skater ran into the boards and crashed. Naked eye doesn't cut it when fractional points seperate their scores.

    To me, COP is an improvement because skaters, for the most part, can understand their scores. They can still be held up/pushed down by PCS- but they can see "oh, doing that extra combination got me no points because I don't understand the rulebook", or "If I do just one more position in my spin, I can get extra points from levels". I really feel like politics are less important.
  36. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    Yes. :( It was Galarraga of the Detroit Tigers. Not only was the call blown, it wasn't even close. The throw to first beat the runner by a whole step. It was the equivalent of giving a skater credit for a quad when they only did a triple and 1/2.

    [/Detroit Tiger fan off]
  37. RockTheTassel

    RockTheTassel Well-Known Member

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    I have the opposite opinion. I think what's fun about COP is that a skater who makes SP mistakes can still make a "comeback" and move up significantly. Most skaters still can't mess up the SP completely and win (no Chan comments please), and sometimes having an outstanding FS still doesn't make up enough for SP errors. But the possibility of success after a less than perfect skate and not being able to predict the results so easily makes skating more exciting to me.
  38. withrespect

    withrespect New Member

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    good point RTT, I shoulda added that to my positives list.
  39. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    From a judging point of view, you can be putting marks in there and have no idea of the outcome. Particularly if it is close contest.

    Although on the other hand, you do sometimes have a good idea because you are giving +1 or +2 on every element and the skater or couple deserves high components. It also just clicks and it is a pleasure to give those kinds of evaluations.