In what ways has CoP IMPROVED skating?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Blair, Dec 4, 2010.

  1. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    There's so much talk about the problems with the CoP system and all the small things that people miss from 6.0.

    I know many may disagree, but what do you think has gotten better in skating since the advent of CoP?

    I would say spins have gotten way better since 2003. Generally all the top men and women now have super fast and centered spins with lots of difficult positions, whereas 10 years ago, travelling spins with un-held weak positions were often the norm in senior skating.

    Skaters now fix their jumping technique when it's wonky...how awesome could Tara Lipinski, Sarah Hughes or Nicole Bobek have been with clean jump technique like Rochette or Kim?

    Arguably footwork and use of edges have gotten better, but at the expense speed in order to get the required steps in.

    That leads me to my last point...STEPS in choereography! The fact judges are explicitly assessing choreagraphy, transitions, and perfromance seperately forces the skater to spend some time working on each.

    Although it's not perfect, I like the result of CoP!
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
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  2. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

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    Biellmann's have gotten better! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
     
  3. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    - It's no more only about jumps
    - Better spins
    - Proper jump technic
    - Steps before and after jumps
    - Steps sequence
    - Transitions
    - Efforts done by skaters in all areas of FS in order to fulfill COP's requirements that give abetter and more interesting field to follow.
     
  4. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Basic skating is better than in the late 90's and early 2000's. But after all, it was better under the figure era ! lol
     
  5. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    I think I see the biggest difference in spins. Fast, long and held in (some) good positions.
     
  6. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all the comments above. However, for me the greatest improvement is in the outcome of competitions. For the most part skating fans come away with the feeling that the right people were in the right order. The wuzrobbed chorus has been reduced enormously.

    I now come away from a competition with a feeling of pleasure, rather than frustration.

    The CoP has given skaters something concrete to strive toward. With the 6.0 system everything was nebulous. Now skaters know that, if all goes as they practiced, they should get XX marks. Want more marks? Do more tricks.
     
  7. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    I also agree with most of what has been written.

    I would also add - that whether we agree with it or not - or even if we don't think PCS is being used properly - at least you can see what the detailed breakdown is as far as the judges /tech callers are concerned.

    Skaters can then adjust for higher levels, work on specific areas where they would like to get higher marks.

    Again - although not everyone is in complete agreement - at least the numbers are broken down more clearly than in 6.0 when one judge would give a 5.4 to the rest of the panel's 5.8s or when judges placed a skater or skaters everywhere from 3-10th place.
     
  8. nashvilledancer

    nashvilledancer New Member

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    The proportion of really boring skaters has gone down, and the proportion of "complete" skaters with choreography as well as excellent jumps has gone up. For too many decades, the really boring skaters often would win if they could skate good figures and land jumps.

    The standings are not completely predictable. In ice dance there is a quest for ever-harder choreography. That means more weird falls, but also more shakeup in the final results.

    Tweaking the system is an ongoing process, but it's improving. It's such a relief not to have so many awful pair spiral positions, and variety in singles spin positions this year. Getting the PCS to actually reflect the range of skills of the skaters still needs to be worked on, though.
     
  9. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I too like the standings are not so predictable under CoP. But for me, I haven't really noticed an improvement in spinning. The good spinners (Czisny, Lambiel) are going to be good spinners no matter what, like Scott Davis and Lucinda Ruh. Mostly, I think skaters struggle with all these different spin edges and positions. So I'm not a fan of spins under CoP.

    But I love that skaters are really being made to look at a real lutz, flip, etc.!

    (Still hate the long--and usually slow--step sequences and all the spiral positions!)
     
  10. Allen

    Allen Glad to be back!

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    I also enjoy that the standings can flip flop. It's kind of exciting to see skaters have a note great short and then pull up in the long. That could happen in 6.0, but not to the same extent and it was contingent on a lot of variables.

    I have to say that even though I've been a skating fan for 19 years now, I enjoy watching skating even more than I did under 6.0. One of the reasons is that I feel like if the skaters complete their elements they get the credit for it. A good example is Mae Bernice Meite at TEB. She had the highest TES score of the night. Under 6.0, that would not have happened. In fact, her scores probably would have been significantly lower than the skaters who placed higher due to PCS. One example that pops out at me was a lower ranked pairs team at nationals one year that had the performance of their lives in the long. They were in an early group and had done poorly in the short. However, they had basically the same level of difficulty as the high ranked teams. Everything was clean and yet they still go scores in the low 4s for technical merit. Under 6.0 they would have gotten more credit for their elements.

    When COP first started, I liked step sequences more, but now they are just too long and labored. In fact, sometimes when I'm watching JPG I wonder if the choreographers are getting arrested for child labor for those clunky 40-50 second step sequences.
     
  11. let`s talk

    let`s talk Banned Member

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    Programs became like a kaleidoscope- everything is changing so fast, from one element to other.. It's difficult to see the story but that's fun!
     
  12. Jot the Dot Dot

    Jot the Dot Dot Headstrong Buzzard

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    Gives FSUers one more subject to bicker about ;)
     
  13. TwizzlerS

    TwizzlerS Well-Known Member

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    I think COP/IJS changed ice dance quite a bit. There is more movement within a competition and between competitions. That makes it more exciting. I also like that dance is so much more athletic now. And the lifts have become amazing.
     
  14. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I love how skaters seem to think, and rightly so, that they could win.
    The spectacular depth in the men's field NEVER would have happened under 6.0. Half those guys would have retired or not come back under the old system.
     
  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Have to disagree with the last two posters that these developments are solely the result of CoP. The depth in the men's field is due to the talent of these highly trained skaters -- very much less to do with CoP, and more to do with other influences such as competing with other extremely talented skaters and trying to improve your own skills just to keep up with your competitors. There's power and grace among the men today but not because of CoP. (IMO it has more to do with the influence of skaters like Johnny Weir, Stephane, Buttle, and before them Emanuel Sandhu showing that men could be elegant, creative, graceful, vulnerable and powerful with macho finesse, and without falling forward on every jump landing -- once upon a time, Cranston, Curry, Robin Cousins, Boitano and Orser showed this power, elegance, precision, and virtuosity as well in their own way, and they did so without CoP). Not saying that 6.0 was a perfect system. It was not, and it needed to be tweaked, but not thrown out, like throwing the baby out with the bath water. In this case, like Evan was recently quoted as saying, the sport eliminated "their brand" when they eliminated 6.0.

    _________________________________________________________________

    IMHO, I think the challenge for the best skaters is to overcome the limitations and stringent, contradictory demands of CoP (also the boring sameness of everyone doing similar moves/ "tricks"). Those are just some of the challenges... which are being met in programs like Dai's sp last season (and his rockin' Swan Lake sp); and Jeremy's Abbott's sp last season. Stephane had beautifully choreographed programs for 2010 Olympics, but he simply didn't skate well.

    Whatever positive comes out of CoP is in spite of the forced way CoP was implemented IMHO. The skaters have to skate under the system that is in existence, and many of the skaters now are used to skating under this system and therefore don't have to make the adjustments that many of the veterans had to make when the system was first implemented. The kiss n' cry is not so much fun anymore. It takes skaters a long double take until they even realize what the numbers mean, i.e., where they will land in the standings.

    The idea that doing more "tricks" will give you more marks, is just "ugh" to me. What about thinking more about music and choreography that suits them, and doing something interesting and unique with music, costume, choreography, and concept as a whole that will wow everyone, rather thinking of single elements, and "tricks" just to point gather. Obviously, strategy is always important in competition, but IMO, putting together a complete program should be the focus. To me, the whole is and should be more important than the parts (such as IMO, the ridiculous 3-jump combo --- so f'ing what? Skaters show they know how to do a triple/ double, and then come to almost a complete standstill to tack on another double... Big deal. But yes, I know, under CoP, it's so f'ing important to tack on whatever you can for the godalmighty points. Does it flow with the music, does it make sense to the choreography -- most of the time, N O!)

    In an ideal world, yes, there are positives to look at under CoP -- mainly from the efforts by those who truly wanted to find a better and a fairer scoring system. Unfortunately, however, the main reason CoP was forced into existence was to appease the IOC, and to protect the judges, not to make things fairer and better for the skaters. The fairer and better scenario was just the ruse and the selling point $peedy and the ISU used.

    IMO, mostly younger fans, and people obsessed with numbers and protocols are in love with CoP. I do agree that some of the positive points presented in this thread are well put, but I have to disagree with "everything changing so fast" being fun. Sometimes there is just too much going on in programs, too much frenetic busyness that amounts to nothing. It's not pleasing to watch, unless there is true depth, difficulty, great music that flows well with the choreography, and that is performed well by the skater. Jeremy Abbott has a really thoughtful free program this season, chock full of difficult entrances into and exits out of jumps, and he hasn't been given much credit for this from the judges. His music is fairly subtle, and that might not be helping him, but it is an extraordinary program. While Florent Amodio is an interesting skater, his free program this season is jaw-dropping, and not in a good way. Yet the judges seem to be taken in or overtaken by it -- maybe it was Florent's agressive expressions that frightened them into giving him high scores??? Some beautiful quad landings by Chan this season, and some even more awe-inspiring falls to the ice -- guess the judges thought the falls were just part of Chan's overall choreo?!
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  16. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    When I saw this thread, I thought, "jumps!" There's an increased emphasis on getting a proper takeoff/landing and on rotating the jump as thoroughly as possible.
     
  17. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Aftershocks, I think I love you. Couldn't have said it better myself.
     
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  18. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    Even though I definitely think we could have a better system, the direct number system is what I love. If properly executed (it definitely isn't always that way), a skater theoretically earns a set number of points. The 6.0 system was a little more arbitrary.

    That's why I find GOE and PCS somewhat absurd-couldn't a skater be pushed upward or downward via negative GOE or low PCS? What about the fact that ISU videos (like jumps and whatnot) are not released-ever? Who's to say that there aren't some of the same dealings that caused the 6.0 system to be overhauled in the first place?
     
  19. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Agree with you here too, mostly skateboy. And thanks for the love. :)

    So true that good spinning technique is based on many things, CoP not being one of them. In Alyssa's case, she said it was practice, but I think it's also some kind of innate ability that some skaters have more of than others. It is good to give credit to elements that didn't seem to get much credit under 6.0 - But, IMO, there should have been a way to give credit for various elements, and fix the overall scoring problems, without completely doing away with 6.0. Step sequences can be boring when they are not well put together and not skated well, and/or have nothing to do with the music. Spiral positions among most of the women today are ugly and boring (aside from Zhang, Mirai, Alyssa -- maybe a few others).


    Pardon me, but IMHO, an increased emphasis on getting take-offs right is because of the lack of edge control many skaters exhibit, because they never had to practice figures, which is how skaters from years ago learned to master control of their edges, and thus were able to enter and exit jumps using the proper edge and displaying the proper technique.

    Please go to school on exquisite edge technique by watching performances by Dorothy Hamill.

    :lol: re CoP having so much to do with emphasizing to skaters the importance of full rotation on jumps. What a laugher... sorry. The only reason that is being emphasized is because of the difficulty many skaters, especially the ladies, have in fully rotating because they are attempting difficult elements such as triple/ triples. And because of their difficulty in mastering proper edge technique on takeoff, which has a great deal to do with what happens in the air. If you don't take off properly, it is very difficult to launch high enough to give yourself enough air time to complete full rotations.

    Also, laughingly, CoP gives skaters credit for "rotations" even when the jump was not completed properly due to a fall. Truly laughable.

    The most positive thing about CoP, I'm sure for the judges and the ISU, is that they can manipulate without detection or oversight and make it up as they go along, merrily changing the rules every season for one reason or another, mainly because they didn't get it right before they forced CoP's implementation in the first place. And don't let me get started with the anonymity the judges enjoy.
     
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  20. mysticchic

    mysticchic Well-Known Member

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    CoP has it's good points and bad. Better quality spins and jumps. But somewhere the beauty of the skates have gone to the wayside. The SP is basically cookie cutter. Pose, stroke, 3/2 (or 3/3) then spin, stoke, footwork into 3, 2A, footwork to spin, final pose.
    Then men are the most interesting. They have thrived under CoP with quads. There is nothing really new with the women (except Mao 3A). More 3/3 and then the tacked on 2 loop or toe.
    But there seems to be more falls because skaters are trying more jumps. I agree PCS's are being abused.
     
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  21. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    You are hitting the nail on the head with your observations here. Exactly the point of my argument. CoP is not properly executed, largely because it was implemented in a rushed forced manner, purely to appease the IOC, and to help protect the judges, but not to truly help the skaters or the sport. And, true, neither system is perfect, but if they had taken their time, and if their motives had been pure and totally for the benefit of helping the sport to progress, then they might have taken the time to fully review 6.0, and see how they could make it better, and change it in a way that lessened the arbitrariness of the scoring. The thing is, use 6.0 numbering but in a better, fairer way. You can't tell me that it was impossible -- they just didn't take the necessary time to study it, and think about making effective improvements and introducing the changes in a better way. The way they implemented CoP, is much like the way they simply decided to get rid of figures, without giving any thought or careful consideration to the consequences.

    The bolded part :respec: That is what my argument is all about. Skating now is made up of parts, not the whole. There is beauty in the whole, and the whole is mostly nonexistent. The best skaters and choreographers are trying to meet the challenge of overcoming the damage wrought by CoP. But, in the instances where skaters are putting together a thoughtful, whole program that has depth (such as Jeremy Abbott), they often don't get the credit they truly deserve.

    I don't think the men have exactly thrived under CoP with quads. I don't see that at all. Most of the men struggle with making their quads consistent, and trying to figure out the best strategic use of a quad. Some of the men (like Chan) who do perfect a quad, often do it to the detriment of their triples. And I don't see any men who have yet managed to perform quads on a regular basis and escape injury -- that is the other reason, IMO, why a lot of men are cautious about attempting them.

    The fact there may be "nothing really new with the women" likely has more to do with cycles in skating, and IMO, also a lot to do with the elimination of figures resulting in many ladies having problems with mastering their edge technique. CoP has merely complicated issues that already existed among the ladies field.

    I'm also not sure it's necessarily true that there are more falls because "skaters are trying more jumps."
     
  22. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

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    My biggest complaint with CoP is that the LP has become a longer version of the SP-- required elements wil a four more jumping passes. Now we see the same three spins (since they got rid of the fourth), similarly boring, long step sequences, and until this season in the ladies, the same Spiral Sequence.

    I do think the elimination of the spiral seq. in the LP is good (although I miss it in the SP); ladies are now varying their spirals again to actually match the music. Kostner's use of spirals in the LP is particularly nice. I really missed normal back spirals.

    Spins are still too long and similar looking... I want them to only score spins based on execution in both SP and LP.
     
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  23. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    well - skaters dont have to "wait their turn" to get higher in rankings or on the podium.
     
  24. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    While I'm in favor of a lot of the ideas behind CoP I can't help but think that it wasn't beta tested nearly enough and that its first version has some fatal flaws which include (but aren't limited to) the following:

    Levels - too many too soon. I would have started with only one level so that GoE is more important (speed, centering, positions).

    Discrete scoring of levels - by making sure that a very bad level 3 spin would get more points than a very good level 2. This guarantees lots of really bad level 3 spins (which is what we've gotten).

    Assuming that all skaters find the jumps difficult in the same order (despite much, much, much evidence to the contrary).

    I would have scored jumps by variety so that (with solo triple jumps) the first triple would get X number of points, the next different triple would get X+y points, the next would get X+y+z etc etc.

    In short, CoP encourages unimaginative point whoring.

    It's pretty effectively killed my interest in following skating on an ongoing basis and ..... I think that was part of the plan, to alienate traditional more knowledgeable fans and replace them with uncritical newer ones.
     
  25. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    PCS are still used this way. The more your reputation grows, the more your PCS grow.
     
  26. stanhope

    stanhope Active Member

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    I've noticed most of the posts have been about how COP/IJS has affected singles (mainly for the better) and a few about dance. There are NONE about pairs yet, and that to me really shows how pairs has benefited the least from this system. How ironic, that we have a new judging system because of the SLC pairs scandal, yet now I find pairs to be the least watchable. In dance, IJS has, like others have already said, made the lifts more athletic, the choreography more interesting, and dance as a discipline easier to measure and therefore, made the competition more exciting. In pairs, IJS has completely destroyed the aesthetic beauty of it - the most beautiful elements, the lifts and death spirals, are now so ugly I can barely stand it. If I see one more blade-grabbing lift with a crazy, fugly dismount that has almost come to a standstill I will poke my eyes out. Same with the ugly, predictable death spiral where they change hands and it slows down so much the man has to "heave" the woman up out of the spiral. I miss 6.0 the most with the pairs.
     
  27. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    About pairs, it decided to educate myself and watched this weekend Lillehammer Olympics, pairs were jaw dropping,I wouldnt believe it d be my fav category to watch, so many interesting programs, lifts and moves i didnt know they existed before. Fantastic!
    For this season I mind the spins in men.Adds nothing to programs, highlights no music and it just helps you to learn to count. In TEB all of them tried the donut spin and in most cases this is an ugly catch foot bad bretzel.
     
  28. googooeyes

    googooeyes Member

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    The overall quality has improved so much under COP. You can really see this at the lower levels like pre novice & novice. In the past, sometimes the fields in these levels were DREADFUL. The kids are really learning that they have to skate and perform and get it done. These kids are growing up in COP and will make the higher levels even better when they get there.
     
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  29. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm ... for a topic about COP improving skating I see very little to support it.

    I've started watching skating on TV waaaaaay back in the 60's and didn't get to see much back then. When TV finally began to show more I watched more as well and often wondered how the judged figured out how to give someone a 5.9/5.9 compared to someone who got a 5.8/5.8 when in my eyes they were pretty much even. I couldn't comprehend how you figured out who got what place. I will say that when a skater or couple got a 6.0, I understood that but sometimes I felt the 6.0 wasn't warranted. I also felt that the judges seemed to manage a way to keep the top 3 after the short/OD in the top 3 most times regardless of how well or poorly the skater/team did.

    COP - for the most part I love the intention it was meant to provide. I love how skaters can be rewarded for what they do, get deducted for what they mess up on and get detailed information on what they did which means to me that they know what areas they need to improve. I do have a problem with using PCS in propping up some skaters due to what seems to be their reputation. I also have a problem with judges giving similar marks in PCS for a skater. As has been said here many a time, just because a skater likely deserves 8-9 in one area, it's quite likely they don't in all areas of PCS. I would like to see that part revisited.

    On the whole, I like COP. I like that it has challenged the skaters to be more athletic generally speaking. I like that there can be a lot of movement amongst the skaters and that just because you are not in the top three after the short doesn't mean you don't have a decent/good shot at still making the podium. I like seeing numbers to explain why one skater finished higher than another (yeah, I like numbers :) they make sense to me) and we can see how much a skater attempted/garnered in points. We still argue about the PCS but we can now use the numbers in the TES and the PCS to explain our position on a skater rather than using the old "but I think skater A is better than skater B" and not really have much to back it up other than how we feel about skater A vs B.

    Even with all it's apparent flaws, I'll take COP.
     
  30. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    There's no more spiral sequence in Ladies SP.
    But I agree with you. I loved the fact that you couldn't try again a missed element in the SP. But now, you can't try again an element in the LP !
    We lost the "Free" Skate spirit ! It's really a Long Program !