In the SP, if male performs 4axl vs 3axl/2axl

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by icedancefan, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. icedancefan

    icedancefan New Member

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    will he suffer a -3GOE or will it be considered invalid and assigned no points? A single axel will assigned a -3GOE.
     
  2. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    If performed as the solo axel jump, it would be an invalid element and receive no points. It would be allowed in the combination or as the other solo jump though.
     
  3. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Who has a 4axel??
     
  4. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    Love to see it though, one day... :cool:
     
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    I suspect we will never see a 4axel performed though.
     
  6. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Believe it or not. I guess someone could examine the film to see if it has been doctored, as some are inclined to believe. I read a statement in an article that said none had been done in competition, which might lead one to think that they have been done in practice.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TfAzhrUyrA
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  7. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    That video has definitely been altered. :shuffle:
     
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    If somebody had done it in practice, the video would be all over the internet, in today's day and age.
     
  9. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

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    :huh: Even to the naked eye, this video is obviously edited (as Jenna said).
     
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Ditto x two ;) Look at it closely and the edit in mid-rotation is quite obvious. Chutzpah and Editing skills x 4. Even the posted comments are telling. The skater is in such shadow too, as if shielding his identity. But, that's probably due to bad lighting and/ or poor camera skills by the videographer. :lol:


    I recall Plush once saying that a quintuple jump is probably impossible, but that a 4-axel might be possible since it requires 4 1/2 revolutions, not a full 5 revolutions.
     
  11. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Anyone who actually believes this video is real is more stupid than I thought.

    You only have to read the description underneath to know it's fake...
     
  12. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    They say the skater is Mark Leung, I believe. But again, that could be a pseudo. I'm skeptical too, but knew it existed so posted it. I think a 4ax will be done at some time, but I doubt it will be any time soon. But I'm more interested in a quintuple.:eek: Most people, including Mishin, thinks there will need to be an equipment change (lighter boots for one) before a quint can be done. I believe Goebel was actually working on one when he was with Heiss.

    I have read that in an interview Kulik said he had done one on the floor (4ax), but never on ice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  13. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    I actually enjoyed watching the video (thanks for posting it Iceman), mostly because it allows one to imagine what a 4axel would actually look like if done correctly & completely rotated! :eek: :cool:

    So far the only one I've seen is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TfAzhrUyrA

    And until Brandon Mroz performed his spectacular fully rotated 4lutz, I only used to watch Zhenya's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA

    Lastly, if history has taught us one thing it's that ANYTHING is possible, and I do mean anything, which includes a 4axel, quintuple, etc.

    And imho Mishin would be the man to lead the way as far as technology goes. He's a well-known inventor after all, his website is out there (don't have it bookmarked) wherein it shows all his skating inventions, et al. I predict one of his future male students will perform a 4axel. It's just too bad it won't be Evgeni, but what he accomplished over his career with Mishin by his side will not be forgotten, one for the history books...
     
  14. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    It may not be Plushenko, but when Gachinski is skating well, his triple Axel is so big and so airy that it makes me think that he could be the one to do it.

    But I would rather never see it if getting it will cost too many careers. I would sooner see Gachinski get well and return to skating well rather than chasing the big new quads. Same with all of them.
     
  15. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

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  16. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    That's the one I was going to post a link to. Someone did a slow mo of it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e7rg1hNQIw

    I don't think that's right. If a skater did land a clean 4A under the current rules wouldn't they get the base value for the 4A less the GOE reduction for -3s across the board for not doing the correct number of rotations? Like when a skater does a 1A instead of a double or triple currently? Same with a combination that has a single jump in it instead of the required, double, triple or quad. The base value for a 4A being 15, and the GOE reduction for -3s across the board is 3.6 so it would still net 11.4 points or about the same as a 3A with +3GOE across the board.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  17. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    This question is important but we won't see it. If someone is going to try the 4Axel at the practices, I guess ISU will be asked to change the rule before the skater actually tries it in the SP. ;)

    Actually, what are the required elements ? a combo quad or triple + double or triple THEN a 2 or 3 Axel THEN a solo triple.
    The question would be the same for a quad/quad combo, right ?
     
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    If you do less rotations than required, it's -3. If you do more rotations than prescribed, it's marked as an invalid element and given no points.

    But nothing is stopping anybody from performing 3axel as the compulsory axel jump and 4axel as solo jump or combination. Well nothing other than the fact nobody has ever landed it. :p

    Asada would do 2axel and 3axel/2toe in the SP at some point, IIRC.
     
  19. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    The above is correct, except that the solo jump may be a quad and as of a couple seasons ago, there may be a quad BOTH in combination and as the solo jump (Kevin Reynolds was the first to do it at 2010 Skate Canada, and so far the only one to do so successfully). The order of jumps in the combination doesn't matter (so the first jump could be a double if the 2nd jump was a triple or quad), but a quad-quad combo would be an invalid element and get no points.

    In Novice Men at Pacific Coast Sectionals last year, Kevin Shum did a triple-triple combination which was not allowed and initially it was given credit (I believe those things have to be manually "asterisked out" at the Novice level and below because those rules aren't part of the ISU software), but later it was thrown out and cost him about 9 points, but it didn't end up affecting his overall placement.
     
  20. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    RFOS is correct, you can do a solo quad and quad combo if the quad is a different jump. Technically, I believe all these jumps layouts are "legal" for senior man SP.

    4A (out of steps), 3A, 4T+3T

    4A+3T, 3A, 4T (out of steps)

    These are also:

    4A (out of steps), 3A+3T, 2A (this is insane)

    4T (out of steps), 3A, 2A+3T

    4A (out of steps), 3A+4T, 2A

    I believe Plushenko has done 3A+4T combos in practice.

    I can't think of any man who was relatively consistent on 4S and 4T other than Tim Goebel and Kevin Reynolds (to a lesser degree). Takeshi Honda, Min Zhang, Brian Joubert and Ilia Klimkin come to mind, but they never had both down.

    ETA: I'd love to see Javier Fernandez try two quads in the SP.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  21. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    Exactly - just like Asada and JSF got the ladies 2a requirement changed to 3a. Once someone wants to do a 4a in the sp, I'm guessing they will do quads only?
     
  22. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    3axel/3.5toe ;)
     
  23. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Lol, let’s discuss this issue once there is a non-faked video in the net of someone trying it in practice! :lol:

    Being more serious I remember having read an article linked on another skating board (I think goldenskate) some years ago where they analysed that with current technical equipment it is impossible to do a quad axel as it’s physically impossible for the skaters to stay long enough in the air to finish it. Unfortunately I don’t remember the link, but maybe someone else still has it? :)
     
  24. aims

    aims New Member

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    Mao Asada did it at the Vancouver Olympics. 3A+2T, 3F, 2A.
     
  25. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    If anyone attempts a 4A in competition, I'd gladly pass the cup around to help pay for their eventual hip replacement.
     
  26. PinkFeathers

    PinkFeathers Active Member

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    4A... can we not? Can we stop this unhealthy fascination with crap that sends skaters into hip/back/knee replacements? Give me some gorgeous triple jumps, and I'm a happy girl.
     
  27. icedancefan

    icedancefan New Member

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    I am not "fascinated with crap". This was a judging/scoring question. The knee replacements/hip/back injuries are due to excessive training/repetition of jumps from a young age because that what this sport has eroded into.
    I only want to know why doing beyond the requirements is penalized more than do far less?