Improving jumps by using motion capture technology

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,467
    4,846
    113
    Here's an article and video about the science of motion capture technology at the University of Delaware, using the example of Melissa Bulanhagui's triple Axel: http://www.ivanhoe.com/science/story/2011/03/832a.html (link fixed)
    Excerpt:
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2011
  2. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    6,023
    555
    113
    Sylvia -- the link isn't working for me -- can you fix it?
     
  3. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    3,685
    340
    83
    Sounds expensive, I wonder how much a skater/coach would have to pay.
     
  4. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

    1,630
    364
    83
  5. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    3,762
    1,671
    113
    It was a shame we didn't actually see an attempt at the triple axel in the video.
     
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,467
    4,846
    113
    Oh really? I assumed there was one :eek: (I watched very quickly). Bulanhagui has attempted the 3A at the Liberty summer competition for the past 3 years (there are videos on yoube).
     
  7. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

    7,833
    2,166
    113
    No, there isn't, but that might be due to the reporters not telling the difference between a double and a triple. :lol: Perhaps they thought they were all 3axels.
     
    let`s talk and (deleted member) like this.
  8. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    9,966
    749
    113
    Some coaches have been using DartFish which sort of does the same thing at a much lower scale. It's like those sequence of images of skater jumping presented by Chevy that aired during past Nationals.
     
  9. geod2

    geod2 New Member

    556
    78
    0

    There have been a couple of other articles about the FS research at UD.
    This link was probably posted on another thread back in 2009 but I still find it fascinating (the video is on the left, middle of the page):

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/science/23skate.html
     
  10. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

    20,818
    2,371
    113
    I doubt she is attempting 3axels, doesn't look ready for that. I think the author doesn't really know the difference. ;)
     
  11. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

    9,905
    1,662
    113
    I saw at least two. Wait, maybe not. Must have been 2a because they looked pretty darned nice and easy.
     
  12. geod2

    geod2 New Member

    556
    78
    0
    There is other affordable technology in use, although without UD's advanced computer analysis.
    I see that Sports Motion has a handful of figure skating users (the demo video happens to be of a baseball player):

    http://www.sportsmotion.com/about-customers.htm#FIGURE

    http://sports-motion.com/videos/playback.htm?FirstName=Super&LastName=smi

    -
     
  13. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,467
    4,846
    113
    No, Melissa really is (as I mentioned above), just not in US qualifying, National or international competition yet.

    The author is correct in this case about the 3A... but misspelled her last name 'Bulanahaguy' in the article. ;)
     
  14. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    3,762
    1,671
    113
    The wrong spelling showed up in the banner for the video clip too!
     
  15. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,467
    4,846
    113
  16. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,938
    817
    113
    Has Frank Carroll been working with Andrew Gonzales, as the article indicates?

    The technology is fascinating. Might be helpful if they were also working on an understanding of how to prevent injuries.
     
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,467
    4,846
    113
    Yes, as of this past season (2010-11). Gonzales placed 18th in Senior Men at 2011 US Nationals.
     
  18. YukiNieve

    YukiNieve Active Member

    651
    147
    43
    Has anybody watched the movie Ice Princess?
    The main character was a girl who studies physics and applies
    that knowledge to jump technique for skating.

    Yes, It's a Disney movie, but when I heard about things like Dart Fish first time,
    it sort of reminded me of that parabola created by a jump on the computer screen she was staring at,
    and I thought, "oh that could actually be a real thing!?". ;)
     
  19. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

    436
    90
    28
    Mishin has worked a lot on things like this, at the ice rink he workes with his students they use some technologies to measure the speed of the skater's rotations and on jump entrances (skaters from Mishin group like Gachinski told about it on interviews), it helps to recognize the mistakes in skater's technique and fix them. That's one of the reasons why Mishin's students have clean jumps
     
  20. just wondering

    just wondering Member

    224
    16
    18
    To me, the exciting part of UD's technology is the ability to run hypothetical scenarios. e.g. tuck an elbow then run the jump on the computer to see the effects on the quality of the jump. Seeing the outcome of the correction before attempting the jump seems like a great step forward! Granted it's not readily available as of yet, but fantastic that such advances are being used to improve the sport.
     
  21. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    2,103
    135
    63
    I have a question: Does Carroll have dartfish at his rink? If so, does he use it?
     
  22. DustPuppyOI

    DustPuppyOI Well-Known Member

    2,119
    284
    83
    Actually I'm more curious on how this kind of technology fits in with general coaching overall. Say can a choreographer with Dartfish replace a general all around coach without such technology?
     
  23. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    18,134
    2,164
    113
    I find Mishin a very interesting man in that regard. He has invented a vest which will make a sound when the skaters pulls in for a jump, but they have to pull in tight enough, otherwise the vest won't sound.

    I think this technology is really fascinating. I think if it can help correct poor technique that is a good thing.
     
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  24. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    12,998
    1,795
    113
    I doubt it. I would think that at the highest elite levels, a skater would want not just a general all-around coach, but a good jumping coach, in addition to technological tools such as Dartfish.

    However, I also wonder if an 'average' coach who understands, interprets and applies the technology really - not something that is so easy to do - will become a superior coach.

    Was Kristy Krall known for coaching good jump technique in the past?
     
  25. loulou

    loulou Well-Known Member

    1,797
    155
    63
    In the past, I know clubs/federations used to share expensive technological instruments across different sports.
    For example: figure skating and gymnastics could share, since they would both benefit.
    On countries as big as the US it would be much more practical to share between clubs than federations though.


    Indeed, what captured my attention here is the "what if" part. Being able to run it on a computer is pretty amazing.
    DartFish was definitely not doing it. It was mostly image playing (overlapping images, putting images next to each other, breaking images into following static pics, etc.).


    Definitely not DartFish. DartFish makes it easier to see things, but it's your reasoning that has to notice them. If you don't know squat about jumping, DartFish is useless.


    What I'm convinced though, it that a fresh eye with a very good sense for lines and elegance could spot the technical flaws simply because they usually aren't pleasant aesthetically.

    Technical coaches often don't have what it takes.
    Nor do choreographers, as "a good sense for lines" for a few static positions (basically what a jump can be bronken into) doesn't equal to devoloping a story on the music and fill the rink with it.
     
  26. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

    9,905
    1,662
    113
    Ha, those things are ANNOYING!!! I was on a freestyle session a while back and could NOT for the life of me figure out what the intermittent beeping was--like one of those "low battery" beeps. It was the kid of our Russian skating director and her husband (the latter was coaching him).
     
  27. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

    3,706
    456
    83
    I think quite some time ago the Uni of Poitiers did a similar test with Brian.
     
  28. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    18,134
    2,164
    113
    Have you seen the squeaky ball technique? Where a skater tucks a squeaky rubber ball on the front of their leg in their tights just above their boot. It makes a sound if the skater is bringing their feet together. We had a skater with a leg wrap who fixed up her technique using that as one of the methods.
     
  29. geod2

    geod2 New Member

    556
    78
    0

    It was unmistakenly Disneyish, but was actually a pretty good movie.
    I'm guessing a huge % of FSU has seen it.
    :)
     
  30. YukiNieve

    YukiNieve Active Member

    651
    147
    43
    Armin is using the analysis, I guess? :cool:

    http://twitpic.com/51yppn

    It is something that many people saw it but do not want to admit it? ;)