Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Andofanatic, Dec 20, 2012.
How did Kim skate her best? She popped a few jumps and still almost won by a point or two.
OK maybe not her best but Ando had one big mistakes in the long. Kim had one big mistake in the long. Ando did only 5 triples and no triple-triple and Kim did 5 triples and a triple-triple. That means Kim was closer to clean with more difficulty, and a bit closer to her best, than Ando by a bit, and Ando still came from behind after the short to beat her. Fact. Why did Ando with 5 triples, no triple-triple, and a big mistake beat Kim with 5 triples and a triple-triple and a big mistake if Kim is better. Since Ando at her best can do 7 triples vs Kim only 6, Ando would win even more easy with both doing their best.
So just because one doesn't think she's the best ever, one is a hater? Idiotic!
Everyone has different criteria as to what constitutes the best, and that criteria need not have anything to do with what some so-called experts say. To me, Kim could never be the best ever simply because she does not do the loop jump, and with such a glaring technical deficiency that makes her an incomplete skater. There are few who do the other jumps better than her, that I must say. Her spins are just satisfactory, her line leaves a lot to be desired, and she is artistic but in the sense that she mimes her choreography very well; her artistry is not of the truly soulful kind, not of the sort that made, say, Janet Lynn so genuinely expressive.
many posters rightfully criticized as well, but some posters severely slammed I was just felt.
If you feel bad in my words, I'm sorry for that.
I think she has to be considered the best ever. She skates from a country with basically little to no history in the sport with technical content right up there in a system that is way harder to fix. She isn't just beating her competitiors like other earlier skaters but is well dominating them. Some argument could be made the rest of the field is weaker. That is true to an extent but I really don't see why that matters.
The only thing that possibly hurts if you look at accomplishments etc. is that she is only a two time world champion. (don't think it matters though)
Two time world champion but also she will have had two Olympic Golds if she wins in Sochi too (huge IF) which gives her 4 major titles-Kwan had 5 and Witt had 6.
You also have to look to at how many shots at worlds they've all had. Katerina went to 9 worlds.. Whereas Yu na had only been to 6. Michelle went to 12 worlds and 2 Olympics.
Of course unfair a bit seeing as nobody medaled right away at worlds like Kim did but win loss record.
Katerina Witt .50
If Kim wins in Sochi she will tie witt in terms of worlds and olympics average.
if Kim wins in Sochi her "record" (which should not be the only determining factor to best ever mind you) would clearly be better than Kwan's. 2 Olympic Golds + 2 World titles easily atleast equals or probably beats 5 World titles + 0 Olympic Golds. Then when you look at other categories like Grand Prix final titles (Kim has 3 in 4 appearances, Kwan 1 in 5 appearances), overall dominance, Kim clearly edges ahead. Looked at another way Kim (winning in Sochi) would have done way better, not just a bit better, in both the biggest and third biggest events in the sport (Olympics, GP final) and Kwan only better in the 2nd biggest- Worlds. However even at Worlds Kim has one edge, she medaled in every single Worlds she was ever in, 6 for 6 thus far. Kim's record would be far more balanced, Olympic dominance which obviously eluded Kwan, Worlds dominance even if still less than the great Kwan here, and general participation and dominance of the regular grand prix series as a whole which Kwan didnt show anytime except the 95-96 season.
Witt would be the only one in the post World War 11 years to truly edge Kim in achievements, but while I try to be as fair to someone like her as possible it is hard for me to ever think of Witt as being the caliber of skater that Kim, Kwan, Ito, Yamaguchi, and many others we have seen the last 30 years, no matter what her medal count is, which I guess comes back to my comment that medal count alone shouldnt determine best ever. Even in her own era many think Witt was only like the 7th best skater, but just the best competitor. Some would even say Thomas, Chin, young Ito, Manley, Kondrashova, Kadavy were all better skaters, but none were the overall competitor Witt was. Maybe Witt deserves to be credited as the best competitor ever, but probably almost nobody would call her the best skater ever.
All that said I really dont know who I consider best ever. I still think Ito is the best jumper I ever saw, Lynn the most artistic skater ever, Schuba the best in compulsory figures, I dont even know who is the best all around, maybe one of Kim, Kwan, or Yamaguchi. Pure skating would be either Hamill or Lynn. It really depends on what one values.
I think if she were to win olympics and break her own world record. Then yeah, she is absolutely the best ladies skater EVER
Sonia Henie couldn't do more than a single axel... how would she cope with COP. The mind boggles... well no it doesn't really.
I wonder what skater you watched, or what protocols, but it was not Yu Na Kim's !
most successful only in Olympics record since Katarina Witt
We'll never know if she could have competed jump-wise. She came up when figures were 60% of the score. Henie was an amazing spinner, by the way.
If Yuna wins her second Olympics, winning every competition along the way with just few falls and mistakes, she would deserve to be known as the most consistent skater ever known. Actually, I think she already deserves that title.
But her base value is not the highest that could be achieved under present CoP, so her free program score will be broken sooner or later. There are also many skaters who are more flexible and have better lines than her. The programs she has skated can hardly be called innovative or original and have not broken any new artistic grounds.
So no, she would not be the greatest skater ever. But she is definitely very, very consistent.
Whatever happens, my hope is that Yu-Na is inspiring future Koreans to break her records one day. The Chinese are getting better in singles, and hopefully Korea will develop strong competitors in ladies and men's.
If this happens, the world scene will only get better.
Honestly, I don't even think it matters if she's considered the greatest or not. If a person thinks so, great! If not, oh well, plenty of fish-- skaters-- in the sea.
I think the stuff Yu-Na does on the ice in her programmes is most difficult ever (so far). And her nerves seem to be excellent. In that sense she is the best skater so far and deserves to be called Queen even for one Olympic gold. The title Kween suits Kwan as her success at two Olympics was not the expected one. The nerves got to her in the most prestigious figure skating competitions twice.
Are there alot of younger Korean skaters in the junior ranks who are good? I wonder if it takes about 10 years to get champions. For instance, after Midori Ito, it took Japan about 10-15 years to be a powerhouse. I wonder if Korea will be the same down the line?
Actually, they did. Danse Macabre and Girshwin piano concerto were very innovative and original.
Was Wilson and Kim's Gershwin really new? Was it innovative or inspiring?
Mind explaining how?
No. I feel like all her programs are the same. Sweeping arms, lean, sweeping arms, lean....
This season, I admits that there was no originality in the choreography of her program.But, once again, I want to ask.
This programs(08-09/09-10 seasons) is almost the same choreography You have felt? At that time she did not received such assessments.
Danse Macabre http://youtu.be/-hIQKNfP-a4
Yes. And to ensure I just wasn't been "anti Yuna" I just watched Scheherazade and Gershwin side by side, with no music so i could focus purely on the choreography (I advise you all the do the same). The movements and the program lay out are so similar. Admittedly, in Scheherazde she does the forward swoop to the knees a lot more, but that is pretty much the main difference.
I do think that Sheherazde is the better program of the two, the forward swoop won me over. Although I prefer the blue dress.
I have never noticed how mediocre her sit spin position is... its really not very low. Yes, Yuna has many great qualities, she is a gorgeous girl, loads of charisma, and is one of the greatest technical skaters ever, but, to call her innovative or original is a stretch.
Then except the part about the choreography. you earlier said "I feel like all her programs are the same."
Without turning off the music and when you Just watch the program, These two programs(Scheherazde/Gershwin or Danse Macabre / 007) that felt the same to you?
well obviously the music is different, but she is essentially doing the same program to different music.. which makes me question the authenticity of the interpretation. Different music is going to make you feel different things. Scheherazde makes me feel sad about Kwan, Gerswhin makes me feel happy about Kulik
ONE OF THE BEST, yes.
Didnt she invent the layback spin?
No. Cecilia Colledge did.
Kim may not be the most artisitic skater but who actually is? I realise a lot of people consider Michelle Kwan to be one of the best artistic skaters ever but personally I just don't get it. I don't really get Kim either and way prefer Mao but that is me. I just think there are very few skaters ever in Ice Dance, Mens, Womens or Pairs that were truly artistic skaters. The majority of skaters can at least project some of the music etc. but that is it.