If Yu Na Kims wins 2nd Olympic Gold at 2014 Olympics would she be best ever?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Andofanatic, Dec 20, 2012.

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Would you consider Yu Na Kim best ever with 2nd Olympic Gold

Poll closed May 4, 2014.
  1. yes

    52.7%
  2. no

    47.3%
  1. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    Yu Na Kim is already widely regarded a top 5 female skater of all time, and the best ever by some. If she successfully defends her Olympic Gold in Sochi would she be the best female skater ever. I believe she would for a variety of reasons. The only others who have multiple Olympic Golds are Henjie and Witt, and nobody considers them the best ever. It would also be impossible to say Michelle Kwan is better than Yu Na Kim with the latter having 2 Olympic Golds and Michelle 0, and when Yu Na has better records at every venue except the World Championships than Kwan (Olympics, Grand Prix final, regular grand prix, etc...). People like Ito and Janet Lynn are highly revered and rightly so but they certainly dont have the medal haul of Kim even now, let alone with her 2nd OGM.
  2. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    "Best ever"?

    I don't think that's a phrase appropriate to use among figure skaters because this is a multifaceted sport; a fine skater can be measured in many different ways.

    "One of the best", yes.

    "The best ever", no. I wouldn't use that to describe any of my favorite skaters.

    In addition, the Olympics isn't a defining event, as far as I'm concerned. Many flukes have happened where the best overall skaters did not win the Gold, or even any Olympic medal (e.g. Kurt Browning).
  3. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    :rolleyes:

    .... Wait did I just step into a warped Time Machine... Is Sochi already over? :confused: I am stunned Ando didn't win!! I was looking forward to her as Princess Leia (with 2 buns) to top off her last Cleopatra Olympic effort. I am soooooo sorry Andofanatic! :wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed .. but why not anonymous voting just curious? Are you trying to compile a new list of some kind :drama:

    Since we have the time machine. Mind if we skip to Peyongchang 2018 also, I want to know if Hanyu/Patrick and Julia/Liza have won already, have they changed new coaches? Or if Kaetlyn Osmond, Gracie Gold, Li Zijun, Karen Chen are still around and winning everything. Or that Fumie is still going for the JP nationals qualifiers and have finally been inducted into the Japanese Hall of Fame already.
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I voted yes but only yes in that if she wins both the 2013 Worlds and 2014 Olympics I would consider her the best ever. However as she is more likely (IMO) to win the 2013 Worlds than the 2014 Olympics, I imagine if she wins the 2014 Olympics, she had also won the 2013 Worlds.
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Flukes never win more than 1 Olympics though, that is for sure (and they usually dont win any other major events, like Worlds, or the Grand Prix final).
  6. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    You're tempting Sonja Henie to rise from the dead with death stares, border guard frisks, torn down SP protocols, and an extemporanously performed triple "Yump" that the technical callers would not dare to ratify as anything less than a 3A.
  7. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it fair to refer to a modern skater as "the best ever" since skating has changed so much between Henie's day (for example). Describing both as "the best of their respective eras" might be more accurate. Also, I don't think it fair to make the determination based on OGMs. While some "flukes" may have OGMs but no other major titile, there are skaters such as Browning who have lots of other major titles, but no OGM due to a fluke.
  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    One of the great skaters, but not the greatest ever.
  9. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    I echo these.
  10. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    No, because she's not American.
  11. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    If one is judging strictly by results (and not counting Sonja Henie), then Katarina Witt beats Yuna.

    Katarina has 2 Olympic Golds, plus 4 World titles and two world silvers. Even if Yuna wins the next worlds and Olys, Katarina wins.
  12. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    ITA with this. Yu-Na's name is already among the best but it's too hard to nail down one skater as the "best ever" b/c you're covering way too much ground and skating has changed immensely. It's hard to compare skaters across the generation gaps b/c the rules/standards/requirements/etc. have changed so much.

    Best of her era? Absolutely, and another world title and OGM would further distance Yu-Na from this crop of skaters. But best ever? I don't know if one skater will ever deserve that title...
  13. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    If you are going by medal count - no. Sonia Henie won 3 Olympic gold medals. If you are going by personal preference that is wide open.

    Sonia Henie was also a world class skier and tennis player. Some have argued that she was athletic enough to compete today if she had today's training methods.
  14. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    No. Multiple gold winners in the past (Witt and Henie) skated at Worlds each of the four years between Olympics. Yu-Na did not do that. And anyway, she hasn't won that second gold medal yet. Better not to count chickens before they're hatched.
  15. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    The question presented is "If Yu Na Kims wins 2nd Olympic Gold at 2014 Olympics would she be best ever?" in the tread title and "Would you consider Yu Na Kim best ever with 2nd Olympic Gold" in the poll. This seems to indicated that "best ever" is determined by results, so I think era is irrelevant to answering the question. The best ever, by results, is Sonja Henie followed by Katarina Witt.
  16. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    No... Sure, she's won many competitions convincingly, but quite honestly, she's really just a jumper (and really only a 3 triple jumper at that because her loop and salchow suck). Most of her spin positions are awful; she lacks line and full polish. She is somewhat artistic, but will never go down in history as one of the most artistic skaters. She rarely has skated perfectly clean LPs.

    As an all around skater, then maybe yes.
  17. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I 've observed there seems some sort of propaganda Mao fans try to spin that Yuna is now apparently just a jumper, a technician, lacks polish, awful spins, somewhat artistic?! Importance of clean programs? (Which is the last time any senior ladies really did an 100% clean program with a difficult 3/3 and 2 lutz in the program. When is the last time Mao did a clean FS program with or without 3A?)

    Yuna hasn't been back on competitive ice for over 19 months, yeah a little rusty by her standard but she's human. Remember when Mao said she want to rework her techniques and had series of major disasters, and everybody respect that and give her some room to develop and breathe, please be consistent with these treatment.

    My personal feeling on the poll issue is that there's no such thing as best skater ever. There's only who's the best skater to you! And that should all it matters.
  18. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ Just an FYI, I am not an uber Mao fan. I admit, I am not a fan of Yuna; I think she is overhyped, and her fans calling her "Queen" Yuna was really excessive.

    And I was never talking about her performances at NRW Trophy; I was talking about Yuna as a skater, and not much has changed in her as a skater since 2007.
  19. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I think Yuna's legacy will be that she came from a country with no figure skating history to dominate the sport. Whatever you think about her mother and her tactics it is remarkable what they achieved without a strong federation to guide and support them.
  20. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    No because Plushenko will put on a skirt again and come do ladies when he's too old to land quads anymore and win all the things there too.
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  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Really in most sports and events IMO there is no best ever, just a chain of GOATs or a best of their generations. This is definitely true of ladies singles which IMO is an event which clearly has nobody that stands out from the rest enough to be considered greatest ever. Instead I look at it as a chain of greatest evers from Henjie to Fleming to Lynn to Fratianne to Witt to Ito to Yamaguchi to Kwan to Kim, with honorable mentions to the greatest compulsory figures skater ever Trixi Schuba, Irina Slutskaya, and Mao Asada on the side. Rare caes where one can be claimed as the GOAT is when ones records, impact, dominance, and sheer everything is just more than everyone else, like Michael Phelps in swimming. I would say the only figure skating discipline which has a true greatest ever is Torvill & Dean and ice dancing, and that is all. Even then some would argue for Kimova & Ponomarenko or Gritschuk & Platov. The other 3 events have nobody that is so clearly above the rest to warrant being recognized as greatest ever, just a succession or group of greatest.
  22. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Fans are fans what can you do, should you diss Michelle Kwan just because the fans nickname her Kween? I don't think so...

    I personally have not called her Queen (I have my own HRM Queen Elizabeth II) but thought it was cute and fitting consider her Olympic performance was indeed majestic. In anycase Yuna expressed herself recently at NRW she is really embarrassed by this nickname so maybe that hint the future to come. As for the hype side, I do believe it was the US who latched onto this idea declared by Tom Hammond at the end of her Olympic FS: Long live the Queen.

    Who do you think deserve more hype than Yuna I wonder? I thought any hype is good for this sport frankly, it could certainly do with more hype.
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  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    True, Yu Na fans calling her Queen is no different than Kwan fans calling Kwan the Kween as far as I can see. The sport definitely needs more hype in North America right now, the sport is near dead her it seems, but I think only a big North American skating star who appeals to the public, which neither Lysacek or Chan seem to, will solve that problem. If Wagner or Gold can become a big star on the coming years it might be what does it.
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  24. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    No I don't think so at all.
  25. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    I don't really think it's the same thing. Yuna became Queen Yuna to the general public because she put up some extraordinary scores in the 10 months between 2009 Worlds and the 2010 Olympics. Michelle Kwan became the Kween because she literally dominated a generation (even if she didn't win everything, she placed very well) and was the complete package on ice.*

    I don't think Yuna will win this one, unfortunately. It's way too early to judge her place in figure skating history, and then, I'm still not going to pick a greatest skater--and especially not one who earns the title because of the number of Olympic golds she has! We can all point to an Olympics where the scoring did not work out in a way that we think was appropriate (to use an oldie, for example, I still think Cecilia Colledge should have won the 1936 OGM over Henie).

    *say what you will about her Olympic performances, but Michelle Kwan is, in so many ways, the complete package, period. Not only was she a brilliant skater with an amazing sense of how to perform on ice, but she's also a very bright young woman who has proven herself capable of doing significant and quality work off-ice. This was totally an OT thing, but she deserves a ton of credit.
  26. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    ALL OF THIS! I am certainly in agreement
  27. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I agree most of it. However, Gordeeva-Grinkov are still considered the greatest pair ever. I know it will change eventually, but right now they still own the throne.

    Among men it's impossible to say greatest ever about anyone, because this discipline is the most rapidly evolving discipline, and the most exciting for that reason, IMO. Among ladies it is the same problem but the sport has not evolved as rapidly as in the men.

    Perhaps we should be talking about -e.g.- the greatest jumper, the greatest spinner, the most complete skater (not necessarily based on medal count), the greatest 'figures' skater, and so on.
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm I have no problem with Gordeeva & Grinkov being called the best ever, but I didnt know they were the clear cut winners. I thought the Protopopovs, Rodnina, Miskutienok & Dmitriev, and Shen & Zhoa (I totally disagree on Shen & Zhoa but they have some backers as the best pair ever) also had some consideration.
  29. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    Best ever?
    Even if I'm an uber of Yuna Kim, I wouldn't say such a way.

    One of the best skaters of her time?
    Yes!
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  30. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Calling somebody “best ever” is a subjective thing at best, and it depends on the criteria in consideration. To some Jordan is the greatest of all time, for others it could be Russell, Chamberlain, Magic or LeBron. For some Woods is the best ever, for others it could be Jones, Hogan or Nicklaus.

    For me, Yu-Na Kim is already ONE of the all-time greats. IMO she is among the best ever in each of the following categories:

    - power
    - speed
    - precision
    - elegance
    - performance finesse
    - performance versatility
    - body of quality works
    - competition records
    - dominance
    - consistency
    - intangibles / star quality (wow factor)
    - mental toughness
  31. naan

    naan New Member

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    Her salchow is good! She's tried 21 times (2006-2012) - Just 1 fall, 1 popped, otherwise fully rotated (2 step-out in 2006 though) She put some transitions into this jump (like Gershwin program). Not as huge as her 3Lz or 3F, but her 3S is consistent and fine, not sucks ;)
    Her spin is not as great as Alissa's or Caroline's, but she's a good spinner, too - usually get level 4, fast, centered. Her signature layover camel spin is lovely, her upper body is quite flexible - almost parallel to the ice. Some people complain about her feet, but it's not distracting to me.
    I think her line and position are fine - I admit that her feet are not pretty, but her upper body movement is very beautiful :swoon: - her arm, shoulder, neck movements are one of the bests in the ladies. (Didn't British commentator say like this before?)
    As for the clean program - yes, it's so rare to see her clean LP - IIRC, she has done perfect clean program with 7 triples (including 3Lo, 3Lz, 3-3) three times. But I want to know this - Is there any skater who easily does perfectly clean LP (including true 3Lz, difficult 3-3, and no edge call and UR)?

    Back to the topic - No, Yuna is my favorite skater, but I would not say she's the best ever in history. I would not call anybody 'the best ever'. One of the greatest skaters? Yes! :)
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  32. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    THIS! :cheer:
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  33. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    This and also, is the OP forgetting about Katarina Witt, Sonja Henie and Dick Button?

    Are future skaters who get OGM by landing quints going to trump any previous multiple OGM winners that only did doubles, triples?

    I wonder if the OP is a Mao fan in disguise, trying to send out jinx vibrations through the universe to Yuna.
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  34. Shaia

    Shaia New Member

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    :hat1:

    Yes, as a Yuna fan, I don't like this thread at all, but if the question must be asked,

    if Yuna can win another Worlds and OGM, that would surely cement her status as one of the all-time greats.

    And more subjectively, Yuna is already the best female skater I've seen since the 80's in terms of total package. (as for Sonja Henie and the likes, I've never seen them, so I can't honestly compare). :p
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  35. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    I'll never understand why people are so obsessed with "best evers" or "greatest evers". There's never going to be a uniform consensus on who THE best ever is. Like anoer poster said, this is such a multifaceted sport. And why does it matter? Does it make you enjoy a certain skater any more or less if she gets named the best ever?
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  36. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Maybe he will skate both events in 2014 as the only Russian singles skater to conquer the puberty monster.
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  37. query5

    query5 New Member

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    best ever depends on alot of things, winning 2nd gold medal doesn't qualify best ever, maybe in certain countries like korea and her fan base.

    1) if overinflated scores and cheat for them. in otherwords over looked ur.
    2) money situation involved,
    3) politics involved.
    4) should and could have won the worlds in 2010 and 2011 due to her mistakes,
    5) handle pressure (how can have pressure on them when screw up and still win, get big scores so they know ahead even if mess up still win.)

    most importantly peoples (public opinion) of them. whether they think they are. some will some won't. that simple
  38. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Spoken as a true Kwanatic. ;)

    Let's face it, Kwan became the "Kween" because she was a good competitor and her fans thought it a cute title, with the "Kw" spelling. Kwan = Kween. I see nothing wrong with that (and I am not, nor ever have been, a Kwan-uber).
  39. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yuna's toe jumps are monsters, the only reason why her salchow might look "bad" to some is just because her 3lz, 3f, and 3t (and also 2a) are huge and basically textbook. Her 3s is a nice jump, and like another poster mentioned, she usually attempts it out of difficult transitions which makes it tougher. The height she gets on it and rideout are both good, it's just the entrance that isn't ideal, but again, transitions into it will have that effect.

    Yuna's upper body is very expressive. And I actually think the fact that she isn't so flexible gives her skating a unique dimension on the ice. She is very fast and powerful, athletic type of skater. Sure she is also very expressive through the face and upper body, but to me, even though you couldn't tell it looking at them off the ice, Yuna on the ice just seems so much more powerful than some of the skaters known for being really flexible like Mao, Alissa, Julia, etc, never fragile even despite her slight build, it's actually a good quality I think.
  40. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yu Na Kim is probably the greatest toe jumper ever. She does triple lutz-triple toe and triple flip-triple toe combinations so well and easily like they are nothing.