If you were a bookie, who would you make favourite for the Ice Dance Olympic gold?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Oct 21, 2013.

If you were a bookie, who would you make favourite for the Ice Dance Olympic gold?

Poll closed Nov 21, 2013.
  1. Davis & White

    155 vote(s)
    72.1%
  2. Virtue & Moir

    58 vote(s)
    27.0%
  3. Other

    2 vote(s)
    0.9%
  1. Meteorlight

    Meteorlight Active Member

    176
    128
    43
    Is ice dancing on the decline these days though? For me, at least, it's actually become a way more exciting discipline since the rule changes (and I feel like people at least know of the existence of ice dancing these days, at least in the U.S.). I see and respect it more as a sport now, whereas pre-2006 I did (don't kill me) see it more or less as a "glorified beauty pageant where the results are pre-determined." In any case, I especially don't see that last part being true these days, since ice dancing results were clearly more pre-determined before COP. Maybe it's a case of losing some older fans and gaining new ones so it evens out?

    I otherwise agree with you - the best skate of the day should win, and it's too early at this point to predict. Actually these two teams are so close to each other I really don't think there is a "right time" to predict. One little bobble from one team may well be the deciding factor at the Olympics.
     
  2. Meteorlight

    Meteorlight Active Member

    176
    128
    43
    This entire post - so much :)

    Between D/W and V/M, I was actually a bigger fan of V/M in the beginning (Tanith and Ben got me to start watch ice dancing again, so they were my sentimental favorites in the lead up to Vancouver and I didn't pay much attention to D/W). D/W really sold me with their Indian/Bollywood OD though (esp. as it came right on the heels of my vacation to India), but still I thought V/M deserved the gold in 2010 (maybe not winning the OD, but overall I thought the results were correct).

    Since then though, some V/M "ubers" have really ruined them for me - it's hard to keep up with their news if I have to sift through a gazillion ridiculous and/or not-nice comments, not just about D/W, but also conspiracies and I think at some point even Jessica Dube (!! from the shippers I suspect). They've basically made D/W the underdogs for me, and a part of me roots for them just to spite the haters:EVILLE:. Not very mature I'll admit, and totally unfair to Tessa and Scott (I actually appreciate his straight-shooting style haha), but I can't help feeling that way (not a saint). Not saying the D/W ubers are all squeaky-clean, but definitely less vocal and offensive as a group in comparison. I do still think V/M are fantastic skaters (and have NOT regressed since Vancouver) - I just don't really feel a vested interest in them anymore.

    Also, I'm sure there is truth to some criticism of D/W (nobody's perfect), but if said truth comes bubblewrapped in venom from a poster who sounds like an extremist lunatic, you can't fault people for not giving weight to their words.

    End rant (been meaning to do that for a while; thanks slow day at work :p)
     
    shan and (deleted member) like this.
  3. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

    1,124
    102
    0
    I lost interest in them as soon as 2008, when Umbrellas made me realize lovey-dovey was the way to go for them. When they later switched to things like Carmen, I was already a D/W fan, who won me over that same year with their Eleanor Rigby.

    And I don't think the case is that VM regressed, I think they simply didn't improve as much as D/W did. So now D/W have the wow factor (like OMG, they are SO much better than 4 years ago) versus VM's sequel to Mahler, which at this point of the season still looks worse than the original.

    Yeah, I can already hear the ubers shouting it's not another Mahler. Whatever. For me it's in the same box of overly nostalgic programs.
     
  4. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

    5,088
    354
    83
    The last few comments about VM reflect my feelings, too. I loved VM back in 2007 but I grew to love DW more and began to really root for them to win. I don't like being told I am an ignorant uber (my words) because I can't see that VM are the greatest and apparently I don't understand ice dance. That comes directly from the over-the-top VM ubers and its insulting, imo. I used to post in the VM thread but don't anymore because of that. I still think VM are a great team but I agree that they are essentially the same and their programs don't invoke any feelings of excitement to me, boring is probably not the word I would use, more like just, "that was nice". I'm just not invested. Which doesn't mean I think they aren't great skaters.

    Of course I will be rooting for DW for gold in Sochi and fully believe they are worthy of it.
     
  5. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

    1,022
    71
    48
    V/M don't represent their fans though V/M represent V/M - V/M have all kinds of fans from around the world - they have more fans than D/W and are more popular and with that, comes more haters. Some have strong and weird opinions than others, some are just as bunch of trolls, every fandom is like that. But that should not stop you from enjoying something - in this case one's skating. But one's personal feelings that D/W are more interesting than V/M does not mean D/W are the better skaters.
     
  6. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

    1,022
    71
    48
    :rofl: I think you find them boring because you don;t get their programs. What V/M do is extremely complex not even Sinead Kerr can replicate that. So its very understanding that you don't get Seasons.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  7. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan Well-Known Member

    1,751
    124
    63
    I am unsure of how to respond because i don't know what exactly is being construed as an insult. There is some inappropriate behaviour in the V&M thread (just as there is in the D&W thread), but I don't understand how that is related to the merits of V&M's actual skating nor do I understand why that is being used to discredit or completely dismiss the opinions of the entire group of V&M fans. I also find it interesting that the people taking issue with the behaviour of V&M fans are silent when Cyn writes a hostile and condescending post to Zazy, a poster i have always known to be fair and respectful.
     
  8. volunteer

    volunteer Member

    176
    10
    18
    My thoughts exactly while sifting through this thread. There has been alot of thoughtful, well educated analysis of the skating, mostly from the VM fans, why not the same from DW fans?

    I think DW are still the favorites based on the recent trends of ice dance judging, but I'm so hoping that I'm wrong.
     
  9. Jessica

    Jessica Active Member

    527
    54
    28
    Meteorlight--I copied the parts of your post that could have been me posting as that's exactly how I feel. Some of the D/W ubers are over the top but the V/M ubers are far worst. Most of them never have anything positive to say about D/W. After all they are 2 time World Champions. There's got to be something complimentary they could say. But most D/W fans acknowledge V/M strengths.
    And by the way, the V/M ubers conspiracies crack me up.

    My rant's over too.

    What did you mean about Jessica Dube?
     
  10. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates Well-Known Member

    1,009
    97
    48
    See, that's what I can't stand. If someone doesn't like a program, they don't like a program. It's not about getting it, or understanding it, it's they simply don't like it. That response comes from V/M fans every single time someone says they don't like a V/M program.

    All fans misbehave at times, but the V/m thread takes it to a new level. The D/W thread rarely discuss V/M, but D/W are constantly talked about. I don't mind criticism about D/W, I'm a huge fan and I have no problem criticizing them myself, but what I do have a problem with is the crazy conspiracy theories that have risen from the V/M thread. It's he reason I've blocked so many people. I used to read the V/M thread because I like keeping up with news regarding all the top teams, but it became increasingly difficult to do so when nearly every other post was hurling accusation of cheating (with no evidence to support this) and basically stating that D/W success was due to nothing more than some unfounded bias against V/M.

    Sometimes I wish I had avoided message boards because I feel it has tainted my view of V/M. For the first time, North America, of all places, is the ice dance powerhouse and I would like to root for all the teams, but I can't. Whenever I watch a V/M performance my first thought is always what an amazingly talented team they are, then I start thinking about what is going to be said about them. what is going to be said about anyone who has the slightest criticism about their performance, and what kind of accusations will fly if they don't score higher than D/W, and it takes me completely out of the program.
     
  11. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    1,232
    67
    48
    Why should I be forced to say positive things about a team whose skating I find thoroughly lacking? I even explained in detail why, I even mentioned that I think Péchalat and Bourzat are better overall? Just because I point out their flaws doesn't mean I am insulting them or calling them names. That, I think, is valid criticism. What I find silly is disregarding a team's skating because I don't like them off ice. I honestly do not care if Scott, Tessa, Nathalie or Fabian are horrible people, what do I know? I don't know them. The only opinion I can give about all these teams is based on how they skate and dance. Why can't we keep the debate there? On the ice? Let's talk about that. Let's talk about how each team, for instance, gets their edges; let's talk about how each team's skills on twizzles; let's talk about how they hit positions during lifts and how many positions they hit; let's talk about dance holds or what about partnering? Why can't we talk about ice dance from a technical perspective instead of wasting our time on ephemeral arguments such as who is a douche and who is not? Who cares? This is not So You Think You Can Ice Dance, this is a sport. Let's behave more like critical followers of an Olympic sport and less like girls in the middle of a Tumblr fandom war. I mean.
     
  12. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates Well-Known Member

    1,009
    97
    48
    You shouldn't have to, and I even said that. It's not the criticism that bothers me, there's parts of D/W FD that I would absolutely love if they changed, but it's the conspiracy theories that bother me, and the baseless accusations that D/W's success can only be credited to cheating. Or the insults hurled at anyone who criticizes V/M. I still remember the bashing Judy Blumberg took because she had the nerve to say that V/M were slow in one of their step sequences at the 2011 Worlds.
     
  13. volunteer

    volunteer Member

    176
    10
    18
     
  14. Subway

    Subway New Member

    348
    48
    0
    Maybe that's the point. ;)
     
  15. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    1,232
    67
    48
    Oh!
     
  16. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    1,589
    134
    0
    All of this, Golightly. All of this.

    It is perfectly ok to like or not like a program when it comes to just watching skating to enjoy it. For one example, I think Mahler is the sappiest thing that ever sapped down the ice, so when I simply want to be entertained and aren't watching trying to sort the teams in terms of who's best, it's not one I revisit often. I get there are a lot of reasons to enjoy or not enjoy a team on a personal level, including a number of things that are not part of a program, are not in the CoP, and are not judged. However, it's very important to not confuse reasons to enjoy a team as being synonymous with reasons to think that team is technically better when they are not. Ice Dance is an Olympic sport. It has a scoring system that's supposed to objectively evaluate the technical aspects of a performance compared against a set of technical criteria.

    What I see a lot is people offering up reasons grounded in theatrics and personal preference as why a team is better or worse. Program theme is supposed to be merely be a framework for displaying the technical side of things (skating, dancing) for evaluation. As Golightly said, this is not So You Think You Can Dance. If we're going to judge based on theatrics and theme, then ice dance does not need to be in the Olympics or even included at the World Championship or National levels. It should be made into a tv show where people can call in and vote or turned strictly into a performance art type of thing like ballet, plays, etc.

    I've been watching skating and ice dance for years now. In that time, I bothered to learn about the technical side of things, and like Golightly, I'm not going to sit here and say nice things about the skating of a team that I find to be inferior on a technical basis, using my understanding and knowledge of dance, ice dance, and skating. No matter what sport it is--football, baseball, basketball, gymnastics, etc.--critical analysis of athlete performance is just part of things. We talk about how the athletes perform, good and bad, based on our understanding of what is good performance and technique for the sport in question. It's not being mean or personally insulting someone. For some reason, despite it's inclusion in the Olympic games as a sport, some people have decided we're not supposed to talk about the technical side of ice dance in lieu of favoring theatrics and theme instead.
     
  17. iNap

    iNap Active Member

    184
    29
    28
    If I was bookie I wish to not loose the money. ;)
     
  18. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates Well-Known Member

    1,009
    97
    48
    And again, no one is saying you have to. I've said many times that criticism doesn't bother me, it's the baseless accusations that do. I have issues with things D/W do at times, there's parts of this years FD I would love to see changed, and a couple things I would like to see cleaned up.
     
  19. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    1,232
    67
    48
    But we are not doing that. I have disagreed MANY TIMES with posters who do that. Many, many times. That is why I prefer to talk about things I can see and judge for myself. See? We are in agreement there.
     
  20. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    1,589
    134
    0
    If I'm not mistaken, people are using video and photos to back up what they're saying about the skating.
     
  21. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates Well-Known Member

    1,009
    97
    48
    Yes, they are, but I am referencing the conspiracy theories about the ISU being against V/M and accusation of cheating, not the discussion about the actual skating.
     
  22. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan Well-Known Member

    1,751
    124
    63
    Aren't you the same person who said this about Tessa's injury resulting in a stoppage in response to the statement that Tessa finishes every move?



    If we can insinuate that a skater faked an injury through a joke, what exactly is off limits? I'm being serious here as I am unsure about what constitutes inappropriate behaviour in this context.

    Also, are the conspiracy theories you are referring to any different than these assertions in the D&W thread?

    and in response:

    I didn't see these posts being written off as "crazy conspiracy theories" (and I am not saying they are--my point is that posters in both threads seem to recognize the importance of politics in this sport so I am not sure why the V&M thread is being written off for it).

    In addition to this, there have been complaints about the frequency with which a Canadian tech caller, Marie Bowness, appears at events, with some posters attributing this to Skate Canada's heavy politicking (and I believe there was the suggestion that D&W's level 3 for their diagonal in their worlds 2012 FD was due to her national bias). There wasn't any evidence to substantiate these claims, but I didn't see them flagged as inappropriate. Thus, I am confused about when such claims are inappropriate/crazy and when they are not.

    And again, I fail to see why all fans of any skater(s) should have to take responsibility for the words and actions of some. And curiously, many people are applying this rule to V&M fans but are not volunteering to take responsibility for everything that is said by fellow fans of their favourite skaters.
     
  23. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

    1,124
    102
    0
    But even the discussion about the actual skating sometimes takes strange routes there... Like, fine, they can criticize aspects of D/W's skating, but for heaven's sake, they criticize EVERYTHING about their skating. I mean, ok, there are things they could do better, but they have to be doing something right if they score so well so often. They seriously make D/W look like crappy skaters, much worse than all of P/B, W/P, I/K, C/L and God knows who else.

    I also don't understand why they analyze D/W so much. I mean, to the extent of using videos and photos?? D/W thread barely mentiones V/M. The other thread finds its ultimate joy in analyzing D/W's programs and pointing out their weaknesses. I just don't get it.
     
  24. Whitneyskates

    Whitneyskates Well-Known Member

    1,009
    97
    48
    I was, and I believe I apologized later, and if I didn't, then I do regret making such a joke.

    Because they're not, they're simply pointing out politics, and they point out that it worked for both teams. Both posts point out that both teams discussed aspects of their programs that were judged differently as the season went on. I do think there is a big difference in pointing out politics or how a program is viewed differently as a season progresses, vs. comments that basically say a team only wins due to cheating, a federation is buying their wins, or the entire skating community now hates a certain team and has decided to keep them down whenever possible.

    And for the record, I have always said some V/M fans, not all, and I have never stated that fans should take responsibility for the actions of a few.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  25. CassAgain

    CassAgain Well-Known Member

    913
    297
    63
    It's because Davis and White have won every head to head match-up since April 2012, and Team Virtue Moir are (quite understandably) pissed off about it. If the roles were reversed, I imagine the Virtue and Moir thread would be mostly sweetness and light and the Davis and White thread would be filled with angst, illustrated diagrams and conspiracy theories. The winners are not obligated to justify their wins.
     
  26. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    1,232
    67
    48
    I can only speak for myself, so my answer to your question is as follows.

    Because their weaknesses are so glaring and so many that I, a fan of this sport for years, cannot for the life of me understand how they're scored so well. So I, a fan of this sport for years, try to rationalize it by studying their programs in depth, see what I can find to explain the scoring. Buy, mostly, what I find is more evidence that their basics in both skating and dancing are severely lacking and inferior to those of their peers. I'm not going to apologize for it. I love this sport, I'm a dancer myself and I'm a total nerd about technique. That's me. I don't know about the others.
     
  27. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    1,589
    134
    0
    Your reasons are much the same as mine. I started looking at things in depth to try to understand and came away from it feeling even more baffled. I've always been into dissecting technique. Even when I was a teen and was watching skating on VHS tapes, I'd watch performances in slow motion and pause on different frames. I vividly remember analyzing G/G, M/D, and B/E in Lillehammar.
     
  28. volunteer

    volunteer Member

    176
    10
    18
    Regarding conspiracy theories - this is figure skating, so it's not so absurd to imagine there is some back room dealing going on, especially when the in-depth analysis does not appear to support the scoring. You may not LIKE the fact that the VM thread analyzes DW's skating, but c'mon, you don't GET it?
     
  29. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

    1,124
    102
    0
    ^ so basically you're saying D/W ARE being overscored most of the time, proving the point I made a couple of posts earlier. Sorry, I do not want to question your competence, but international panels of judges give Meryl and Charlie those scores, not their fans. One would think international panels of trained judges are more capable than fans analyzing programs for fun. Just saying.

    You're saying D/W's placements are a result of politicking, in other words, one of the favourite things VM fans say these days :rolleyes:

    And FYI, Tessa and Scott have weaknesses too, but I don't go around snapshoting their every move to prove it.

    ETA: sorry, it was a response to Golightly.
     
  30. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    14,575
    1,934
    113
    Right. I'm sure all the D&W fans felt the same way in 2012...

    BTW, many knowledgeable ice dancers and experts thought V&M deserved to win last year, including Tarasova, Staviyski, Zhulin, and Averbukh, so it's not only their fans who have thought they were undermarked.