If you were a bookie, who would you make favourite for the Ice Dance Olympic gold?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Oct 21, 2013.

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If you were a bookie, who would you make favourite for the Ice Dance Olympic gold?

Poll closed Nov 21, 2013.
  1. Davis & White

    155 vote(s)
    72.1%
  2. Virtue & Moir

    58 vote(s)
    27.0%
  3. Other

    2 vote(s)
    0.9%
  1. rustyskater

    rustyskater Member

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    i love this. I think VM's funny face was better than DF, as brilliant at DF was. I wanted DF to win, really I did, but I have to say, as unpopular as it is, I thought FF was technically and artistically brilliant. Tessa, who I believe was the mastermind behind FF, is brilliant. I don't care for her partner very much - but I take the good with the bad. Carmen was OK but not as good as the dance put out by the Americans. I now compare Shez v Seasons and I have to say - Shez wins. Maybe come Sochi time I'll have a different opinion but DW, right now, seem really sharp to me - OGM worthy. I think PB have an OGM worth free dance, so do VM but DW have two dances that put them in first place . . . so far.
     
  2. rustyskater

    rustyskater Member

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    i love this. I think VM's funny face was better than DF, as brilliant at DF was. I wanted DF to win, really I did, but I have to say, as unpopular as it is, I thought FF was technically and artistically brilliant. Tessa, who I believe was the mastermind behind FF, is brilliant. I don't care for her partner very much - but I take the good with the bad. Carmen was OK but not as good as the dance put out by the Americans. I now compare Shez v Seasons and I have to say - Shez wins. Maybe come Sochi time I'll have a different opinion but DW, right now, seem really sharp to me - OGM worthy. I think PB have an OGM worth free dance, so do VM but DW have two dances that put them in first place . . . so far.
     
  3. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    Girl, you've got more issues than Vogue :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  4. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    I would use these same reasons to explain V&M's superiority over the field, though I would also add stronger elements, greater complexity, greater amplitude in both their movements and their overall pattern, better sense of rhythm, etc..

    But the results don't always reflect what happened on the ice.
    Wishing all the teams the best!
     
    l'etoile and (deleted member) like this.
  5. Zazy

    Zazy Member

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    Oh come on, just because you don't spend all your time in the D/W thread, doesn't mean you aren't biased. Anyone who agrees that it's crystal clear that D/W are the better skaters has a bias somewhere. Are D/W's programs more ready right now? Yes, but V/M programs are more complex and always take more time to grow (not that D/W's programs are super simple in general but their complexity isn't rooted in skating, for example their FD has a lot of detailed posing but it's still posing).

    I'm not going to argue that there are lots of silly things said by V/M fans here, there are. But some of the stuff that's said is dismissed right away because it doesn't follow the established narrative. For example, since when are D/W more powerful skaters than V/M? They might have more powerful upper body movements but if you actually look at the skating, there's no way to support that statement. Mute the sound and watch both teams back to back, it's obvious. D/W do some things better than V/M but powerful stroking isn't one of them, and yet you hear it all the time.
     
  6. Cyn

    Cyn Well-Known Member

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    I know, and FTR, I may think that Scott behaves like an ass sometimes, but I disagree with Fenway and whoever else it was upthread who made those statements.

    Correction there -- I may be a fan of theirs, but I don't über them, nor do I über any other skater or team. I also don't hate or even dislike Tessa and Scott. I think they're enormously talented, and the rivalry with Meryl and Charlie has been fantastic -- I'm a fan of figure skating, and it's done wonders for Ice Dance in North America.

    Right now I think Meryl and Charlie have momentum, but it would be foolish for anyone to put all their eggs in one basket at this point of the season -- way too much can happen between now and Sochi.

    Sweetie, there's a huge difference between preferring one team to another and having a bias. I fall into the former category. You obviously don't read any of my posts -- I've never, ever said that Davis/White are "clearly" the better skaters because I've felt that for the past five years that either team can win when they're competing against each other, but bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that.

    There's that persecutory complex in high gear again. If you think I want to "shoot" your übers because they "disagree with my opinions all the time," you're way, way off base. I don't expect you to agree with me -- hence the term "über." To understand why that Location is there, please see my response to parapluies.

    No, honey, *that* is what you call satire. If you'd been around this forum for more than 11 months or bothered to venture out of your V/M bubble, you would know that there's been a long-running, friendly joke here on FSU because I own a Glock. Back when I was an Admin, my User Title was "The Admin With A Glock." Over the years, other members here have teasingly asked to "borrow" it in the virtual sense to "shoot" various trolls on the board, various pains in the ass both IRL and on FSU, and IIRC, a couple of inanimate objects giving someone fits. Just because my Location snarks on V/M übers, doesn't mean I have issues, nor does it mean that I have it in for y'all -- in the past I've "targeted" the YuNa Bombers, the WeirDos, and back in the day, the OTT Kwaniacs. It's my little way of expressing that I think some of y'all behave like a bunch of annoying, hypersensitive, paranoid idiots with a major persecutory complex when it comes to Tessa and Scott.

    I also find it highly :rolleyes: that so many of y'all scream about the alleged double-standard y'all claim exists WRT the judges' marks for Meryl and Charlie, yet you expect a double-standard WRT when Tessa and Scott make obvious mistakes -- case in point, the aforementioned botched twizzles made by Tessa and the misstep by Scott in the SD at last year's Worlds. There was violent gnashing of teeth in your thread that they were, IYO, heavily penalized for those mistakes (in that thread those mistakes were referred to as a "small," "minor," and "tiny"), yet if Meryl and Charlie had made those same exact mistakes, those mistakes would have been considered huge, glaring, egregious, etc., and I have a fat honking suspicion that the same loss of points Tessa and Scott received wouldn't have been sufficient enough of a penalty.

    Also, just to be clear, I'm snarky about a lot of skaters. Snark is a lot of what FSU is about. I may be disappointed if Meryl and Charlie don't win, but I don't rail and bitch about V/M when that happens. Being frank, the one team I *do* tend to bitch about is Chock/Bates, primarily because of Madison. I didn't like her when she skated with Greg Zuerlein, and when Evan and Emily split so that he could skate with her, that fueled the dislike to a red-hot level, and I think Evan was a grade-A tool for ditching a vastly superior partner to skate with one who is grossly inferior.

    Lastly, I also cheer for a lot of skaters and teams, both from US as well as a bunch of other countries. I'm thrilled when a skater or team that's not highly ranked delivers a kickass program or skates well in a competition (case in point, Kaetlyn Osmond's short program at Worlds last year).

    Posing is what Viktor Petrenko did in his programs -- standing in place without any foot movement and doing hand-ography in place for 10 or more seconds. Stopping for a momentary pause to transition to a different cut of music with a change in tempo is not posing. But again, bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that.

    :rofl: They must have crap stroking because they just crawl across the ice :rolleyes:. You cannot generate that kind of speed and flow without good stroking or good edges. Of course, I don't expect y'all to give them credit for things you refuse to see or acknowledge, because that doesn't fit *your* narrative, but bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that. The quote "There's none so blind as those who will not see" applies here WRT y'all's perception of D/W's skating.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  7. Zazy

    Zazy Member

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    How can you be so sure you have no bias? Just because you think both teams are talented doesn't mean you're perfectly objective, noone is. If you prefer one team over another you are biased. Period. You can try to be fair but it's impossible not to have your preferences get in the way. It doesn't mean we can't have discussions over the relative merits of both teams but the bias will always be there and I think it's a good idea to remember that.

    You might not have outright said that D/W are clearly the better ice dancers, but you clearly implied as much:

    I mean, what else are we supposed to get from that? If that isn't what you meant then that's an error on your part, not mine. The insults and condescending tone are not needed and say more about you than anything else.



    I guess we have a different idea of posing then. To me, a lot of segments in D/W's program are not at a complete standstill but have very little ice coverage and don't use their edges in more than a perfunctory manner, for example the section where Charlie does a bunch of lunges in a row around Meryl. They're technically moving so I can see why you wouldn't consider it posing but I disagree. Again, no need for insults.


    When did I say they had crap stroking? I said it wasn't as good as V/M, there's a difference. There are people on here who aren't V/M ubers and actually know a lot about ice dance who agree with me. So it isn't just some crazy uber saying this. You've clearly decided that anything a V/M fan says is crazy, but what about them? I know Silver has mentioned several times that V/M have the best skating skills. Is that crazy as well? And if so why?

    Just because the criticism of D/W's skating by some fans is rather extreme, doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it. D/W have improved but they still have a number of weaknesses. I don't think it's a crime to point it out.
     
  8. pat c

    pat c Well-Known Member

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    :wideeyes: Wow. Ok to summarize: D&W are better, V&M aren't. OR V&M are better, D&W aren't.

    SC is an evil organization that influences results. OR they aren't any worse than any other skating fed.

    Hmm......;)
     
  9. vmfan89

    vmfan89 New Member

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    I agree. In 2002, Anissina and Peizerat had lost their world title the year before and lost the grand prix title to Bourze and Kraatz. It's the Olympics and D/W have the momentum at this point, but nothing is guaranteed.
     
  10. Jiazumi

    Jiazumi Active Member

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    This. Entire. Post. :kickass::kickass:
     
  11. centerstage01

    centerstage01 Well-Known Member

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    No, it's not a crime to point out things that D/W need to work on, but as I bolded in your statement, even you see that some take it too far. At that point it isn't constructive criticism, it's just insulting for the joy of being mean. Both sides are guilty of it, but it really seems like some (NOT ALL) V/M fans are going after D/W with a vigor that's kind of disturbing. I understand being fiercely loyal to a skater/skaters (I'm an admitted Kwan fan), but at some point when you are unable to see ANY good in the other team and can only see their flaws and then exaggerate those flaws to the point of near hysteria, it's time to take a few hundred steps back.

    I'd love to see D/W win in Sochi, but if they get outskated, they get outskated. I'll be sad for them, but there's no shame in going out there and giving it 100% and if they come up short, the sun will still come up tomorrow. I really like V/M but I'll admit some fans are really tainting them for me. I was so happy for them in Vancouver because they earned that gold medal, but I can't say I'm cheering for them as hard this year simply because I think Meryl and Charlie have a legitimate shot at the gold, too. Plus, I have to cheer for the home team. :)
     
  12. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    In this entire D/W vs V/M debate finally someone said something about C/B that I wholeheartedly agree on! I never got over the nasty way Emily was treated in this situation. I thought she was an amazing ice dancer with lots of potential and she was actually the one that made S/B shine. Evan was just a nice background. And she was so genuinely likeable, unlike Madison.

    Just look at this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwzjL2VqCN0

    versus this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu9Ya_AJlow

    :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    ETA: And Madison totally reminds me of Scott. Very full of herself, very much in love with her own talent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  13. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers New Member

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    Scott is definitely not full of himself. He does wear his heart (and mind) on his sleeve, which makes his interviews rather interesting sometimes. It also makes him more relatable to a broader section of the population outside of the gentrified and politically correct world of skating. Since he was a child, he's been an extroverted, funny, high energy, competitive person who always gives 110%. And he's a good leader. He and Tessa have run some excellent inspirational training days with young skaters on and off ice. He's also been the athlete rep/mentor for Western Ontario Section for more than a couple of years. He has a very clear vision of what ice dance should be, and I expect he will be involved at a number of different levels in the sport to continue to influence the direction of the sport in the future.
     
  14. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. It's actually cool to see someone recognize Tessa's involvement with the Funny Face choreography. I feel that's often taken for granted. A lot of the steps and transitions in Funny Face were all her.

    As for putting my money on someone to win. I think I will wait. I'd love to see VM win, they're my team, but the heart has nothing to do with the money ;) So I will wait. I'll get back to you in a couple of months.
     
  15. Zazy

    Zazy Member

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    Well, I think the problem is ignorance of the sport even by people who follow it closely. A lot of people never bother to understand how the scoring works and then cry foul if they don't like the result, but without being able to explain why their team should have won. You say V/M earned their victory in Vancouver but would you be able to explain why, using objective scoring criteria? How many people have actually read the ISU documents that describe how to score PCS and GOE? How many people have a real understanding of which lifts or moves are more difficult, what's involved in great skating skills, what good posture and line looks like? I'm guessing 99% of us don't really know what we're talking about much of the time. (And I include myself in this: I've watched ice dance for many years, I've tried to educate myself as much as possible but I'm not an expert). So people will latch on to whatever argument supports their favourite skater but since they don't know what they're talking about, they'll sometimes push it to an extreme. That's fan wars in a nutshell.

    I do feel that the current judging climate and the COP system in general favours D/W. And the elimination of compulsories, the choice of the last two SD patterns, the changes in level scoring for step sequences and twizzles, all have benefited them (Can you imagine the outcry from some quarters if blues and tango had been chosen?) I think 20 years ago V/M would have been widely considered as the superior skaters but standards change and they're skating in the wrong era for their particular strengths, and the opposite is true for D/W. It's frustrating and confusing to me and other V/M fans because what's valued in ice dance has changed very quickly. But D/W are very talented at what they do, even if it isn't what I personally would like ice dance to look like (dancing using your edges, interdependent movement, etc.) Odds are very good that they'll win and so be it. I hope judging standards will change down the road though or I'll end up losing interest in ice dance.
     
  16. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    One thing that bothers me, for instance, is the constant toe picking between elements and outside of the step sequences. Not just Davis and White do this, of course, this is not just a criticism to them. A few years ago, these things were punished by the judges. The core of ice dance is your edgework and sadly, I don't think that the judges are stressing that enough. Then you have V-M, not a perfect team, mind you, they do have their weaknesses, but one thing they have (and come on, let's be fair and not deny this) is superior edgework. But, you know what? This doesn't matter these days! Judges aren't rewarding anyone for their edgework? No one cares if your edges are better? That's not what's being marked. What's being marked is adequacy. If you do enough, say, do a little mohawk here, a little choctaw there, hold an edge a little during your step sequence, there's your level 4. That's what I don't like, that, to me, is not edgework. I love dance dearly, but I don't like the state of the sport right now. That's me, others can (and will) disagree, of course. Tomatoes, tomatos, I guess.
     
  17. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    Heart says V/M, brain says D/W… In this case i want to follow my heart.
     
  18. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers New Member

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    This is an excellent analysis. And I think maybe some of Scott's comments from time to time (which some give him a hard time about) may come out of a sense of frustration over the direction of judging in ice dance. I'm not sure we can blame COP for this entirely, though. Yes, there is a more athletic focus on skating and ice dance since the introduction of COP. It was needed and long overdue, I think. But I think the tools exist, especially within PCS but also within GOE, to still reward all those wonderful things that make ice dance well, ice dance. I recommend a good read of the following document from the ISU website. It's the handbook for referees and judges for ice dance:

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-204785-222008-173275-0-file,00.pdf

    There are lots of opportunities to reward the ice dance in ice dance. But I think it requires a deep understanding on the part of the judges, and a real adherence to these rules. I think too many are still using PCS as a ranking tool like 6.0. There is a ton of detail, and I think there needs to be some more discussions and training sessions on the application of GOE and PCS. And they might need to keep some of these pages as handy reference sheets while they judge. But I think it's worth the effort, and will help bring some credibility back to ice dance results, at least for those of us who are not extreme ubers at all costs. I have my favourites, but it isn't blind favouritism. I can accept when they are knocked in points from time to time for less than perfect elements. But I am frustrated at the lack of discipline often in awarding PCS and GOE. The criteria is there for them. The judges just need to use it. And I think some public education on how PCS and GOE should be determined would maybe help tone down some of the crazy fan wars.
     
  19. Tweak

    Tweak New Member

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    But Zazy was talking about there being some truth to the criticism of DW's skating, extreme fandom or otherwise.

    Whenever I read the VM thread and the posters are talking (very animatedly and passionately, vigorously, whatever adjective one would use) about flaws in their rivals, there are some very valid points and arguments to support why they think their rivals should not be getting x amount of points or why they are weaker in one department than another...these discussions can go on for pages and pages and pages, which (to me anyways) is always interesting and very informative. There are detailed comparisons of both teams and I enjoy reading the posters stance on why A is better than B (with thorough explanations and references to ISU handbook, videos, of course). Maybe certain fans or ubers can't take criticism of their favorites so they see these posts as attacking and hostile. In the SC FD thread, I merely pointed out that VM were better than DW in several skills of ice dancing, to which I was baselessly called biased and a D/W hater, no less :rofl:

    IMO, educational discussions/informative disucssions about why people view A better than B (with detailed explanations) is not attacking. Those fans who can't speak up for their own favorites end up calling their rivals douchebags, unsportmanlike whiney sore losers, (or the idiot who called them a tampon and the bag that came in it with some lame Big Bang Theory interpretation/monologue/soliloquy, etc....;) ) That is taking the low road and most definitely not constructive criticism. I don't see this in the VM thread, just in the other thread...

    So I get skeptical about those who whine about the V/M fandom attacking D/W vigorously on FSU especially considering the source.

    ETA: On a side note, I find it hilarious that some claim they are not ubers, but fans of all skaters. It's pretty clear that once you take offense at the criticism of a certain team in their rival's thread, to the extent that you frantically start PM-ing those people to stop it immediately or will report to admins, you have most definitely reached uberdom. Maybe just don't read that certain thread if your tolerance level to criticism is very low.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
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  20. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    Most of the time they come out of a sense of frustration over not winning, though.

    Please. There are no constructive discussions in that thread. I haven't ever seen one person in there who would say Meryl and Charlie were good at something. In their world, everything D/W do is crappy and overscored (God only knows how many times that word has been used there regarding D/W). And most of the time when V/M lose, it's not because they had a bad performance, it's because the whole world is politicking against them :rolleyes:

    I might be a passionate D/W fan and I do think Scott comes off terribly arrogant sometimes and I generally do not dig their style or programs, but I can still see their talent and quality of their skating. It wasn't too hard for me to say Carmen was a great dance or (not long ago) that I loved V/M's midline step sequence. You never see this kind of opinions about D/W in the other thread.

    Have you ever even bothered to read the D/W thread? We barely speak about V/M there, we concentrate on Meryl and Charlie, whereas in the other thread they talk Meryl and Charlie more often than they breathe :rolleyes:

    For some V/M ubers the only way to go is attack. It seems they can only appreciate their team when they bash the other. Sorry, but it's true. Not all of them, but MANY of them. And I do realize sometimes D/W fans act the same way, but I would say there are much less crazy DW ubers than crazy VM ubers. Or maybe they're just not as loud.

    I think the reason is that most D/W fans actually agree V/M and D/W are both great teams, but their personal preference lies with D/W who, at the moment, seem to be on top of their game. V/M fans, on the other hand, got used to the thought V/M are the better team (because they were until D/W caught up) and it's so friggin hard for them to accept it is not necessarily the case anymore.
     
  21. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    Why the are we still talking about Scott's comments? What does that have to do with skating????
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  22. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    My guess is because it's hard to criticize their actual skating.
     
  23. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Hey, that's a fair question. A few people here have already mentioned what they consider lacking about D-W's skating. We've talked about edgework, for instance. Others have mentioned posture, not just here but in other threads. I think those are valid criticisms. I'd throw in musicality and rhythm conveyance, too? I mean, just because I think P-B are a better team than D-W doesn't mean I'm insulting Meryl and Charlie in any way. Again, it's an opinion formed from what I see on the ice. Here, for instance, look at his shoulder-elbow line and their distance on one of the steps on the pattern: http://31.media.tumblr.com/94ad4bfb0cc70d812653c1db0aa7b4b3/tumblr_mvg5baNjdR1qc5l9co1_500.jpg In dance, that big drop there is a no-no? Shouldn't that, and the distance, be accurately reflected on, say, the GOE? Skating skills? Levels? How about this shoot the duck variation? http://s14.postimg.org/jq6if2eup/Shoot.jpg Those positions should not be rewarded with plus twos or plus threes? And they should also be considered on the PCS. I do not think it is crazy of me to question this or many other inconsistencies I have seen while paying close attention to their programs. If I, a mere fan of the sport can do it, shouldn't a judge see these things?

    Of course Virtue and Moir make mistakes. Of late, their twizzles haven't been consistent, for example. But V-M do take a hit on TES, GOE AND PCS, particularly on skating skills for less than bad distance and bad shoot the ducks, with even one judge marking them on the 8's on those. Just recently, they had trouble with a choreography lift and they got negative GOE for that, that is fair, it is what should happen. But I see things like the ones I posted above get brilliant GOE or PCS and I question it. Why aren't the rules applied to all teams equally?
     
  24. Kaffeine

    Kaffeine Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to post that the "shoot the duck position" is not part of the lift. It's just a transition they use in the FD.
     
  25. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I know that, Kaffeine, I was being general in that many elements are graded in the twos and threes GOE when the execution is laboured. That shoot the duck, however, still should take a hit on PCS all the same, no? I mean, look at this angle: http://postimg.org/image/e83duyvjj/ (sorry for the bad quality, this is a screen capture).

    I can, however, post an analysis on the lifts too. Perhaps mention how, instead of moving her own center to hold enough balance and help her partner lift her, she leans on him, causing him to rock on his blades and hunch his back? That happens a lot. Should also take a hit on both GOE and PCS there. This is what I mean when I say this system rewards adequacy. I toe-pick my way between elements, but do quick edge holds during step sequences, get my level three or level four. I show soft core during lifts, but still get them done, there's my level four. But the ambitious team who goes for a lift like this: http://25.media.tumblr.com/2e253cbac991bdb68dbfa119efefff9c/tumblr_mvj8zxLZ2L1rm6ftfo2_250.gif or this: http://25.media.tumblr.com/0f4426d3a3be3b448c9e04c444b5171a/tumblr_mjy451NjW01qcrozeo1_r2_400.gif (part one) and http://31.media.tumblr.com/ef9bca6f7d9197be1e14770dae72c651/tumblr_mjy451NjW01qcrozeo2_r1_400.gif (part two) makes the smallest mistake, hits a bad position and down goes everything, especially the GOE and the PCS. I tried to find a gif of the first lift at the Finlandia Trophy (this one was well executed) there Scott was late to get in position and could not hold his free leg long enough to match Tessa's. Took a hit on GOE.

    I am not complaining about the hits on the marks. If you make mistakes, if you do not skate cleanly, you must be punished for it. My complaint is that not everyone is.

    ETA: I do have a theory, though. Since D-W do not hold positions, maybe the judges can't see these details. You have to grab a screen cap to see them. But, if that were the case, shouldn't the team who takes the time to hold positions and finish their movements hold an advantage? Again, these are questions based on the skating. Not on whether Scott Moir is an arrogant prick or Charlie White has curly hair.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  26. Kaffeine

    Kaffeine Well-Known Member

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    Judges are not going to go frame by frame to make sure the elbow is at the "perfect angle" each second of each sequence or that everything is perfect each micro-second. To put it frankly, they don't have the time to do that. If they did, they would find loads of micro-mistakes, micro-off balance points, etc in everyone, even Tessa and Scott. No skater is going to be perfect, frame by frame. It's just not possible.
     
  27. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying they should be perfect? No one is. That posture mistake is not a micro mistake. This is the Finnstep, you do not drop your elbows like that on the Finnstep? How about you do that on the Golden Waltz? Posture matters, distance matters, lift technique matters. So, is it fine to look sloppy as long as you get it done? That's exactly why I don't like ice dancing these days. This complacency that does no one any favors. The message that sends is that as long as teams get the job done, it is all good. No striving for excellence on what's supposed to be the most artistic discipline in our sport. Sorry, like I said before, some might be okay with this, I am not and I think it is fair to talk about it as long as I keep it respectful.
     
  28. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    987
    D/W's posture problem is so obvious though - even an untrained eye can spot it from a mile away.
     
  29. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,232
    I mean, Gracie Gold can't control her arms and everyone talks about it, but you talk about posture problems in DANCING and suddenly that's a micro mistake? Er, no.

    Anyway! Still, if I am a bookie, I hold on to my V-M stock and don't bet against it just yet.
     
  30. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,936
    Golightly may be using screencaps, but IMO D&W's posture and extension issues are quite noticeable in real time and have been for years. This used to be a huge deal in ice dance; it's arguably what kept B&A from ever winning Worlds, and kept B&K behind the Russians for years.