If you like both D/W & V/M but love other couples..........

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by PashaFan, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Any time you can align your center of gravity with your support, it doesn't require a lot of core strength to maintain a stable equilbrium. Depending which way your butt is hanging off the stool, you lean a bit to realign & compensate.

    There are a number of classic balance toys that illustrate how this stuff works.


    You can even have your center of gravity below the point of the support (and a very small point of support at that), and still have a very stable point of equilibrium, even if it looks quite hair raising & impossible.

    You can balance a wood toy with a floppy belt jammed into it on the very tip of your finger.
    This is a scout craft called a Sky Hook.

    http://www.phys.vt.edu/~demo/images/Mechanics/m65_1.jpg


    If you are interested in this stuff, the place to look is Classical Mechanics textbooks. Feynmann's is particularly charming.
    Landau & Lifschitz is still excellent.

    Tessa has great core strength. She just doesn't need to use it when doing a transition through a sitting position on Scott's shoulders.

    But that's not the point.

    The point is, that the rules on lifts have been applied in some very inconsistent ways, including to Tessa & Scott this season, but also to less renowned teams, like Guignard & Fabbri.

    I'd like to see the rules made more clear. I don't see who it hurts to define "sitting" and "shoulders" a little more clearly. It certainly wouldn't hurt Tessa & Scott, because they are not using any lifts with anything like sitting on shoulders this season.

    But it might help Elena & Nikita, and for that matter Charlene Guignard & Marco Fabbri to have a second's "transition" allowed for sitting, just as is given for gyno lifts. I'd like their lifts to be explicitly legal. I'd like Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift to be explicitly legal. They are all great lifts, and I'd like to see them.

    I don't see why anyone would disagree with that.
     
  2. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    ?? Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift is explicitly legal. It was never called illegal last season, at any competition. You may question it, but there was never a question raised by the *judges* about that lift. That means that when the judges looked at the criteria, and then looked at that lift, the lift met the criteria. That's why you able to see this "great lift' all season long.

    Unless you want a picture of Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift added to the rule book with the words "Here is an example of a legal lift," I'm not sure how much more explicit you can get.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  3. icefan1005

    icefan1005 New Member

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    I don't think that your comparison with a stool is a very accurate. That "stool" you are comparing Scott with is stationary & has three or four legs maybe while Scott is a human being who is rotating on two legs on skates on ice. Tessa obviously is at a height due to being on Scott's shoulders unlike when you're sitting on a stool and your core is closer to the ground thus it's much stable. Keep in mind, they are rotating which makes it harder for the senses to maintain a state of equilibrium. Very different from just sitting on a plain, old stool.

    So if you were on Scott's shoulders, you'd just sit there like you were on a stool? You wouldn't strengthen your core more and hold yourself better? Because if you fall, your partner does as well.
     
  4. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    I was going to just leave this discussion alone, but since it just keeps going I'll say my two cents. You may talk about stools, toys, and classical mechanics textbooks as much as you'd like, but it means nothing. None of those things is a lift, or more specifically, the lift in question. Have you ever done a lift in this position? I have. (In a contemporary dance duet to "Almost Lover") And I can guarantee you that it takes a great deal of core strength. Not because I read it somewhere in a textbook, but because I did it. Furthermore, I'm sure that given the various quick transitions going on and the speed of Scott's rotation, that Tessa's lift was even more difficult and required more strength. Not only do you have to pull yourself into an upright position and maintain good posture (which is much easier said than done), you have to be very aware of your partner's head and compensate for that. And if you don't want to take my word on it, it's a pretty popular type of lift in competitive dance these days so you can probably find tutorials and such on Youtube.


    Now, the real reason I came in here was to figure out what happened with Anna and Luca's "illegal" move? Did anyone figure that out yet?
     
  5. icefan1005

    icefan1005 New Member

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    Very informative post! There is nothing quite like experience. :respec:
     
  6. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    I can't really think of a result this Olympics that would result in Ice dance getting kicked out.

    1/ Even people at FSU can't really explain/agree upon the breakdown of judging in ice dance with the 2 top teams. There won't be a clear wuzrobbed at any level that the media can jump on. There seems to be more fuss on FSU about the results for B & S - but even that isn't completely agreed upon.

    2/ I hate to say it but if D & W win with clearly flawed programs (and I have a hard time imagining that since they seem to rarely make mistakes - let alone glaring ones) I just don't see the North American Media causing a stir about it. It would be an American team winning and I just can't see that ruffling too many powerful feathers. There might be a bit of puzzlement in Canadian press - but if any only a bit probably and without a lot of power or influence I should imagine. And even then - a lot of people have declared Canadians whiny and in a much less clear situation it might just be written off as sour grapes. And likely they will be put into a lump with Bourne and Kraatz fans and even Sale and Pelletier fans.

    3/ If the Americans win - I can't see the media worrying too much about the other medals. If B and S win bronze or even silver even if the result it is deemed wrong by figure skating fans - I just can't see it getting too much coverage by North American Media. The Olympics are also in Russia and Russia has always been a powerhouse in ice dance. It won't surprise most media and casual fans to see Russian ice dancers in medal position. And they were the bronze medalists last year and P and B and W & P were both injured last year - and C & L are not super well known around the world. And of course it will be a lovely story for the host nation without taking anything away from the American victory.

    I may be misunderstanding who would have power in this situation to make such a decision? Maybe Cinquanta would stick up for C and L? I just can't see it getting the trajectory to get rid of the sport. Even when there was power on board for SLC the result was a change in the system - not the sport being kicked out.
     
  7. Subway

    Subway New Member

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    Last I checked, Scott is not a three-legged stool. The center of gravity in the case of the stool is the stool. It's stable. The legs aren't spinning in a spinning stool, the seat is spinning. The legs are the support. Tessa's support is a two-legged human being on the edges of a couple of skate blades. Therefore, Tessa's center of balance must accomodate Scott's rotation around his axis, supported only by his skate blades, not three immobile stool legs.

    The analogy here is just incomprehensible. This lift is an interdependent move by two skaters, not Tessa vaulting onto a stable element with a spinning lid.

    Not to mention, Tessa's core strength comes into play not simply in her ability to hold the position, but her ability to HIT the position after vaulting into it - "it" being onto the shoulders of a human being moving on his skates, hold it, and then transition out of it. She's not climbing up there either, she has to hit the moving target, arrest her own momentum atop his rotation (his shoulders aren't spinning around the stable axis of his body nailed to the ice - his entire body is spinning and balanced only on blades, so she has to be mindful of HIS equilibrium).

    I can, however, think of several lifts where the mechanics are basically the liftee crawls up or is hoisted up aligned with the lifter's center of gravity, and the pose is all she wrote. This isn't one of them.
     
  8. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    Bad judging aside (I'm quite grumpy still), what did people think of the skating by the other four couples today ?.
    It's too bad P/B could not skate their best & they were quite slow. I don't think they will move up in the FD.
    W/P were fantastic. Fantastic Finn Step. Pure class. I hope I take to their FD more than I did at Skate Canada & COR.
    C/L were lovely. Such flow. I hope they can go out in the FD and skate a PB.
    B/S were really good & strong but I felt that their Finn Step let them down. I hope they have worked on their FD since COR.
     
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I had no idea this thread was created just so posters can talk about D/W (about how terrible they are) and V/M (mechanics of using one's core in a lift).
     
  10. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    This thread if for ALL lovers of Ice Dance. No D/W hate here. It was a bad result today. Can people not tell the truth ?.
    Find me posts on this thread that has been unfair to D/W.
    Most on here love all the top Ice Dance couples.
    If you are a D/W uber then you have your thread.
    This thread is for fan's of ALL couples.
    Everyone is welcome.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  11. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I'd also like to know what move of C&L was illegal. Was it that brief lift they do? I thought that it was Ok to have small moves like that???

    ETA every time I post from a phone, Auto Correct screws me over one way or the other :lol:
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  12. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Not quite "last minute". The change was made sometime after the GP season, but I thought it was before Canadian Nationals.

    It would have be be gold for someone other than D/W and V/M, and even then it would take more that bad judging. It would need to be something more scandalous, like uncovering deals or cheating judges like in SLC.

    It seems impossible to have an ice dance discussion without the arrival of ubers who feel a compulsive need need to hammer their points, even when expressly uninvited by the thread title. They seem constitutionally incapable of letting any criticism for one or praise of the other escape without rebuttal (even when it means just making up BS and/or ignoring the actual rulebook). Do these folks imagine the ISU judges and callers all spend their idle hours here and will will finally see the light based on the brilliance and insight of these amateur posts?

    Returning to the topic of this thread, Anyone know yet what caused 2 point deduction for C/L in the SD today for an illegal move. I watched the dance on Icenetwork and nothing immediately jumped out. Their ending left was a little gyno, but not offensively so to my eye. The only unusual move than stood out to me was the gliding moment where her body weigh is supported by her knee on his foot. Is there a rule against that?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  13. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    The issue, I believe, is that most people don't self-identify as ubers, even when posting 10x/day in the fan threads or asking each other to write angry letters to the ISU over the SD result this morning. People like to believe that they see each event objectively despite their personal (largely emotional) preference.

    Re: C/L and the illegal element-- There was talk it was the jump turn they do in unison in the intro choreography right when they really start moving across the ice. How terrifying that it can go multiple events and then get called like that. It's such a hit.
     
  14. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Right now, those 2 points would not have made any difference in their placement.

    I had noticed the jumps, but they were only half-rotation jumps and dance jumps are expressly permitted. They are mentioned as a difficult feature for assigning levels for some elements.

    Here is the general rule re jumps in dance:

    "17. Jumps:
    a) Jump – A jump of not more than one (1) revolution, which may be executed by only one (1) partner at a time. This jump may be performed either holding hand(s) or separated, but the distance between partners must not be more than two (2) arms-lengths apart;
    b) Dance Jump – A small jump not more than ½ a revolution, used to change foot or direction. Such jumps must be executed in a dance hold or at not more than 2 arms-lengths apart. Both partners may jump at the same time;
    c) Hop – A small jump without revolution."

    I guess maybe the callers decided they were more than 2 arms-lengths apart.

    I was curious why this had not come up earlier, so I watched their SD from NHK again. The GFP moves got a lot more air. At NHK, they did not clearly leave the ice. Those looked more like turns on their toepicks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  15. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    B/S were lucky to get 4th today. The Russian fed should really look at pushing I/K now instead. B/S need to change their FD.
    V/M & D/W were as amazing as ever. I thought Tessa & Scott just edged it.
    SO HAPPY FOR NATHALIE & FABIAN !. Their FD is so beautiful.
    W/P should have got 4th. Why such a low technical score ?.
     
  16. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    Andrew had an obvious error in the CiSt, as soon as I saw it I knew they'd drop points. It took 3 points of their BV. Both step sequences were shaky actually.

    I wish I/K had made the GPF, so we'd see if TEB was a fluke or not. I think they would have had a real chance to beat B/S and strengthen their position going into Nationals.
     
  17. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    the junior high school kid in me just released itself for about 30 seconds while I read this. From all the postings about how gorgeous the man is..one would think he has a significant third leg.

    The majority of posters here are V/M fans. there has been extensive bashing of the V/M-D/W scores. When I read the OP post, I wondered with V/M fan came out of the woodwork. You have the V/M thread to bash D/W in, yet you all seem to take over any and all dance threads.
    This. on all accounts.
     
  18. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I'm so happy for P-B. They needed a good skate like that to make a statement. They're still here and in medal contention :)
     
  19. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Absolutely thrilled for Nathalie & Fabian today! I love their Little Prince FD!
     
  20. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    sooooo happy for Nathalie & Fabian :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2: I love the many different emotions we get from them with this FD, each one beautifully expressed through the movement. They are true dancers, and I feel privileged to watch them skate this FD. Just bringing this excellent post over here from one of the "Oy..." thread. Thank you again for this, MissJD!

     
  21. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    Thanks Bkfan! I love this FD and I love them. I was nervous after the SD, but I'm glad they came back and fought for it! Well deserved bronze!

    I read an article where Nathalie said they were told by judges at TeB that the SD needed more "ballroom style" and even though they didn't want to, they made concessions. Maybe this explains the SD issues here. I'm sure they'll work on it and be much better at the next outing! Getting the bronze they deserve will be a good boost for the rest of the season!
     
  22. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I love P&B but have to agree that their SD is a big miss this year. I don't know how they can keep the same music and basic choreography and achieve better results. I think they really missed the boat with this one.
     
  23. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that they asked that of P-B when there are plenty non-ballroom styled SD around. Some even have had not trouble scoring well.
     
  24. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I'm pretty disappointed that outside a few teams, most of the SDs do not have that Quickstep/Foxtrot feel.
     
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well they were just 3rd at the Grand Prix final and have beaten B&S twice this year so they are already achieving the best results they ever could. Whether they are reaching their potential as a program with the SD though, I would say no.
     
  26. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Thanks for composing such a great post, MissJD! It is a real treat to read :)
    I love them and this FD as well--I think they are absolutely enchanting in it. They have such a gift for movement. And as always, I love how clean their edges are. Your post has made me appreciate this gem of a program even more.

    And yes, I heard that too. I think the judges also did not like that they were using quickstep, foxtrot and Charleston...like they felt it was too much? The funny thing is, Charleston is not a ballroom dance, but one that strongly influenced quickstep. If they wanted only ballroom, why did they include Charleston and swing? I wish they would be more open about inviting dance from beyond the ballroom...I liked the idea of incorporating cabaret-style dances as they played such a large role in both foxtrot (it has vaudeville roots) and quickstep. And I agree this criterion does not seem to be applied equally across all teams. Oh well, I have faith they can smooth things out between now and the Olympics as I agree that the recent changes were likely the reason for the issues in the SD.

    I hope their performance in the FD here and the result gives them a boost of confidence that carries them through Sochi.

    PashaFan, I am so glad you started this thread. I have wanted to participate in a general dance thread here for a while, so I am delighted you came up with this thread :)
     
  27. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    Nice to be talking Ice Dance with you Bournekraatzfan !
    I love P/B SD. I hope they win the European title in January. That is such a huge boost to get the Bronze in the GPF. Yes, B/S made errors but even if they skated clean P/B are way ahead choreography-wise for me.
     
  28. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    PashaFan, I agree with you (and nice to be chatting ice dance with you too :)). I actually think P&B are a lot better than the other teams contending for bronze, and I say this as an I&K uber and big fan of W&P. I love the technique they developed under Boucher-Zazoui...gorgeous edge quality. If you look at their skates they rarely throw up snow. And they cut nice and deep into that ice. I also can't say enough about their quality of movemet. They are such natural dancers.

    I have a question: has anyone heard any news about Huang&Zheng? I haven't heard anything since their withdrawal from CoC...I hoep we get some good news soon.
    I know people will find this really generic but I really like their Nutcracker FD. I like how he mimics the stiffness of the nutcracker in the beginning and then comes alive. But she is the star for me. I love how she carries herself and moves. Look at her posture and fluidity, her lovely arms and fingers. You can see her dance training. Pardon the commentary--it's awful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBUjhssgHWs
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  29. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    I keep seeing this a lot this year, and I'm left :confused: because I think P/B's SD is my favorite of the whole season - It's one of the only non-manufactured feeling in terms of expression, and I love the playful sultry characters, they show genuine personalities. I find them maybe the only authentic team left in the game. I guess my taste is getting dubious at best. :eek:
     
  30. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any of the things you see in it. Just to start with I have trouble finding the foxtrot in the first minute of the program. Easy to pick out the quickstep because it's the finnstep ;) (and I think they skate that well) and while I see the nod to the charleston in the final part I don't see it for long. I can understand why the judges told them it had to be more "ballroom".

    But I've read Igor changed their elements around from the original choreography and some of the music and I suspect in the process he removed all the dance from it as well. Which is a shame because they are usually much stronger. I liked their 3 previous SDs.