If you like both D/W & V/M but love other couples..........

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by PashaFan, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    Thanks Bkfan! I love this FD and I love them. I was nervous after the SD, but I'm glad they came back and fought for it! Well deserved bronze!

    I read an article where Nathalie said they were told by judges at TeB that the SD needed more "ballroom style" and even though they didn't want to, they made concessions. Maybe this explains the SD issues here. I'm sure they'll work on it and be much better at the next outing! Getting the bronze they deserve will be a good boost for the rest of the season!
  2. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I love P&B but have to agree that their SD is a big miss this year. I don't know how they can keep the same music and basic choreography and achieve better results. I think they really missed the boat with this one.
  3. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that they asked that of P-B when there are plenty non-ballroom styled SD around. Some even have had not trouble scoring well.
  4. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I'm pretty disappointed that outside a few teams, most of the SDs do not have that Quickstep/Foxtrot feel.
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well they were just 3rd at the Grand Prix final and have beaten B&S twice this year so they are already achieving the best results they ever could. Whether they are reaching their potential as a program with the SD though, I would say no.
  6. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Thanks for composing such a great post, MissJD! It is a real treat to read :)
    I love them and this FD as well--I think they are absolutely enchanting in it. They have such a gift for movement. And as always, I love how clean their edges are. Your post has made me appreciate this gem of a program even more.

    And yes, I heard that too. I think the judges also did not like that they were using quickstep, foxtrot and Charleston...like they felt it was too much? The funny thing is, Charleston is not a ballroom dance, but one that strongly influenced quickstep. If they wanted only ballroom, why did they include Charleston and swing? I wish they would be more open about inviting dance from beyond the ballroom...I liked the idea of incorporating cabaret-style dances as they played such a large role in both foxtrot (it has vaudeville roots) and quickstep. And I agree this criterion does not seem to be applied equally across all teams. Oh well, I have faith they can smooth things out between now and the Olympics as I agree that the recent changes were likely the reason for the issues in the SD.

    I hope their performance in the FD here and the result gives them a boost of confidence that carries them through Sochi.

    PashaFan, I am so glad you started this thread. I have wanted to participate in a general dance thread here for a while, so I am delighted you came up with this thread :)
  7. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    Nice to be talking Ice Dance with you Bournekraatzfan !
    I love P/B SD. I hope they win the European title in January. That is such a huge boost to get the Bronze in the GPF. Yes, B/S made errors but even if they skated clean P/B are way ahead choreography-wise for me.
  8. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    PashaFan, I agree with you (and nice to be chatting ice dance with you too :)). I actually think P&B are a lot better than the other teams contending for bronze, and I say this as an I&K uber and big fan of W&P. I love the technique they developed under Boucher-Zazoui...gorgeous edge quality. If you look at their skates they rarely throw up snow. And they cut nice and deep into that ice. I also can't say enough about their quality of movemet. They are such natural dancers.

    I have a question: has anyone heard any news about Huang&Zheng? I haven't heard anything since their withdrawal from CoC...I hoep we get some good news soon.
    I know people will find this really generic but I really like their Nutcracker FD. I like how he mimics the stiffness of the nutcracker in the beginning and then comes alive. But she is the star for me. I love how she carries herself and moves. Look at her posture and fluidity, her lovely arms and fingers. You can see her dance training. Pardon the commentary--it's awful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBUjhssgHWs
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  9. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    I keep seeing this a lot this year, and I'm left :confused: because I think P/B's SD is my favorite of the whole season - It's one of the only non-manufactured feeling in terms of expression, and I love the playful sultry characters, they show genuine personalities. I find them maybe the only authentic team left in the game. I guess my taste is getting dubious at best. :eek:
  10. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any of the things you see in it. Just to start with I have trouble finding the foxtrot in the first minute of the program. Easy to pick out the quickstep because it's the finnstep ;) (and I think they skate that well) and while I see the nod to the charleston in the final part I don't see it for long. I can understand why the judges told them it had to be more "ballroom".

    But I've read Igor changed their elements around from the original choreography and some of the music and I suspect in the process he removed all the dance from it as well. Which is a shame because they are usually much stronger. I liked their 3 previous SDs.
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    With the IJS has made Ice Dance more about executing high-level elements cleanly rather than dance, I would like the ISU to come up with a way to make the SDs more about the dance element with emphasis of correct dance holds, appropriate steps, rhythms, etc. I've always been in favor of the OD/SD being more "traditional" but still allowing couples ways to find creative interpretations of that tradition (like the Duschenays, for example) while allowing the FDs to be more free in the sort of dances allowed (lyrical, hip-hop, interpretive, modern, traditional, ballroom, etc.). It might be a tall order, but I think that's still doable with IJS.

    As of right now, outside the pattern dance, I don't see much difference in the dances of the SD and the FD generally, no matter what rhythm is prescribed to that season's SD.
  12. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    I'm with you. This short Dance has everything for me. They have such a natural style. They are very easy to watch. Also three of my friends who don't watch much skating said they enjoy watching P/B the most as they are fun & seem to show personality more.
    I'm not saying in terms of the technical mark they are the best but I enjoy them the most.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  13. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Back when the current judging system was first being discussed, fans generally could see how you can define and give points to the things singles and pairs do, but ice dance has no real elements. If you look back to pre-COP dances, there were only brief, simple spins, the lifts were small and came and went in a second or two. With occasional exceptions, there weren't really step sequences because the whole dance was a sequence of steps. So how, folks wondered, were they going to assign levels to dances? Divide the rink into quarters and make each circuit around the rink 4 elements? (That actually is kind of how they assigned levels to the compulsory dances, by dividing them into chunks, but asking callers to assign levels on the fly when every skater has original steps would be pretty difficult.)

    As an example, how would you define this 1998 OD in terms of elements:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD0UKQ4TG8A

    Of all the disciplines, dance is the one which the new judging system concept of discrete, scorable elements simply did not fit. So, they changed dance to match the scoring system by creating dance elements and calling everything else transitions.

    In theory, they could add more value to skating in close holds using the PCS mark, but the guidance does not call for that (and in any event, we'd be talking a point or two). Similarly, a dance that really does not capture the feel or look the the designated rhythm could be hit in the PCS marks, but the ISU seems totally unwilling to be sticklers to strict dance floor styles.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I get what you're saying. But wouldn't say the ODs from the 2000-2004 period were easier to adapt to IJS than the ODs or OSPs from other periods?
  15. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think so. A lot of folks blame the SLC judging scandal for the change in system, but in fact it was already being developed long before that. IMO the dance technical committee started paving the way for the new system by introducing requirements for things like a dance spin and no touch steps even before 2002. (You see those in the 2002 Olympic ODs, which is why I started looking farther back.) It just didn't have as much impact on the rest of the dance yet because they did not need to make them ugly-complicated to get levels and the dance was still being scored as a whole under 6.0.
  16. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    ITA. Except for the part about your taste ;) I've been gushing over PB's sd since french masters. I appreciate that they made it actually enjoyable, because frankly many teams missed that mark. But to each his own!
  17. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    So Russian Nationals was interesting.
    Bobrova/Soloviev won, Ekaterina wore a much better dress !.
    Ilinykh/Katsalapov had a bad fall early in the FD. They looked really poor through the program.
    It looks bad for them going into the Euros & Sochi. I was so sad that they fell.
    I still don't get how a FD that would look out of date against Bourne/Kraatz & Grishuk/Platov of the 90's is getting such high scores. Bob/Sol have gone a little backwards this year for me. While Ili/Kat are helping take the sport forwards.
  18. nuge

    nuge Well-Known Member

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  19. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

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    I truly expect D/W to go to this years WCh to get their third World gold. Will be very disappointed if one of the top 2 teams doesn't go for it.
  20. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    It's getting closer to Olympic time! :cheer: Here's a list of the Olympic Ice Dance qualifiers with their national championship scores (where I could find them)! The * means that they have been officially announced as part of the National Olympic Team. Names in parenthesis represent multiple teams vying for that spot. Red font = team event.

    Olympic Ice Dance Spots (24 total)

    Australia (1) – O’Brien/ Merriman*-- won Nats 145.97

    Azerbaijan (1) – Zlobina/ Stinikov

    Canada (3) – Virtue/ Moir, Weaver/ Poje, (Paul/ Islam; Gilles/ Poirier)

    China (1) – Huang/ Zheng—won Chinese Nats with 134.18

    France (2) – Pechalat/ Bourzat – won French Nats 176.78 (Carron/ Jones – skipped Nats but won Universiade 153.65; Papdakis/ Cizeron—2nd at Nats 154.24)

    Germany (2) –Zhinganshina/ Gazsi*—won Nats 149.41 (Cheers to Nelli for getting her citizenship in time!), Kolbe/ Caruso*—2nd at Nats 145.26

    Great Britain (1) – Coomes/ Buckland*-- won Nats 147.10

    Italy (2) – Cappellini/ Lanotte—won Nats 183.35; Guignard/ Fabbri—2nd at Nats 157.40

    Japan (1) – Reed/ Reed – won Jap Nats 142.87*

    Lithuania (1) – Tobias/ Stagniunas (Yay for getting her citizenship on time!)

    Russia (3) – Bobrova/ Soloviev—Won Rus Nats 179.90 , Ilinykh/ Katsalapov—2nd at Rus Nats 168.01, ( Sinitsina/ Zhiganshin – 3rd at Nats 165.60; Riazanova/ Tkachenko—4th at Nats 163.99)

    Spain (1) – Hurtado/ Diaz—won Spanish Nats 150.88

    Turkey (1) – Agafonova/ Ucar

    Ukraine (1) – Heekin-Canedy/ Dun – National Champs (det. at Ukrainian open) 137.01

    US (3) – Davis/ White, (Shibs; Chock/ Bates; Hubbell/ Donohue)
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  21. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, MissJD, really, but :confused:?
  22. CassAgain

    CassAgain Active Member

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    Now there's some nationals inflation.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
  23. Mrs. P

    Mrs. P New Member

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  24. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    Haha! Thanks Mrs. P, I corrected it! Perhaps I should sort my spreadsheet by discipline as well as country ;)
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    That would be taking Nationals inflation to a new level. :D
  27. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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  28. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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  29. Marta24

    Marta24 Member

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    skatefan and (deleted member) like this.
  30. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    Weaver/Poje are getting hyped like D/W & V/M.
    For me, when the two top couples retire I would like to see no single couple dominate like these two have over the past two years.
    If W/P are the best then fine but they don't have a right to it. No couple should.
    Cappelini/Lanotte are improving so much & Bobrova/Soloviev have a lot of improving to do. Also Ilinykh/Katsapalov are also natural future World Champions.
    I would love to see World titles change hands between 3 or 4 different couples in the next few years.
  31. nuge

    nuge Well-Known Member

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  32. Marta24

    Marta24 Member

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    I think if D/W and V/M retire, we won't see such a dominant rivalry for a long time. I/K have the talent to dominate the ice dance world, but they have to pull themselves together. Other couples that I'm going to watch out for are Paul/Islam and Hawayek/Baker. Paul/Islam seem so finally have found a way to show their talent in competition and I think training in DSC is really helping them. IMO, Hawayek/Baker have that certain something you can't get, regardless how many hours you train.
  33. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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  34. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    North America have dominated Ice Dance for the past 5 years but European couples are coming back up there. I hope we get a good balance at the top.
  35. nuge

    nuge Well-Known Member

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  36. Marta24

    Marta24 Member

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    It's the Amelie soundtrack.
  37. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    There seems to be a curse on successful U.S. junior teams when they turn senior, especially teams really similar in height... Lichtman/Copely and now Aldridge/Eaton are struggling. I feel like over the next few Oly cycles we'll see fewer teams like Virtue/Moir and more teams like Chock/Bates as the sport keeps getting more acrobatic.
  38. Marta24

    Marta24 Member

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    I hope not. Honestly, I don't know what to make of Chock/Bates. Last season it looked like they are close to Weaver/Poje, but at CoR they lost with a 10 points gap to W/P.
  39. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    You know, besides Moir being expressive and mugging as if he is the only skater in the world with sex appeal, I find nothing all that outstanding about this ice dance team. Phony romantic themes with questionable skating every season, "peaking" for Worlds and Olympics.

    Virtue and Moir are BORING.

    Therefore, it makes me watch all the other teams more closely, and I realize that V/M are not THAT great.
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  40. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Questionable skating? Well, they do make mistakes, but elements without mistakes are not all that great skating consists of. Otherwise a team like, say, Reeds would win over Virtue/Moir, Ilinykh/Katsalapov or Weaver/Poje when they make less mistakes than those teams (or other higher level teams). It's your problem that you don't understand where the quality/greatness in skating/ice dancing lies.