If you like both D/W & V/M but love other couples..........

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by PashaFan, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

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    I think the GPF will tell us a lot about what the judges are looking for come Sochi.
    B/S need to make some major changes to their FD. It was just a mess at COR. They can do so much better. I loved their FD last season.
     
  2. Dolore

    Dolore Member

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    I wondered about I/K's free dance lifts. In two of them it looks like Elena is sitting on Nikita's shoulders. But that would be illegal right ? Now so far the judges didn‘t seem to mind but what if they are in a bad mood or try to appease the public after the latest controversies ? I would hate for I/K to lose points because of something that they could easily avoid.
     
  3. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I think that the ISU dance tech committee needs to define "sitting" and "shoulders," and "back," if they want to have their rule about no sitting on shoulders or back be usable for disallowing some or all of a lift, considering the stuff they have allowed in the past. It isn't fair to all the teams to have it be so fuzzy, and it will be particularly unfair if their nonenforcement of the rule in the past inspires some team to include a questionable move, which some tech panel suddenly decides is illegal, at, say, the Olympics.

    Which of their 3 lifts particularly worried you, Pashafan?

    In their combination lift, it looks like she sits on one shoulder, facing forward, before she hits her position, and then she sits back down on one shoulder for a short bit before starting the rotational part of the combination:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDWI0SnbLA&feature=player_detailpage#t=85

    And in the lift where Nikita has one knee on the ice, she also moves through a sitting position
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDWI0SnbLA&feature=player_detailpage#t=111

    And there is even a transitory sit on shoulders moment in the rotation lift
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDWI0SnbLA&feature=player_detailpage#t=166

    I think that the tech panel should include a "for more than 1 second" limitation on sitting. That would make these transitional moves be clearly legal.
     
  4. morqet

    morqet Well-Known Member

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    In I/K's case she always has another contact point for support in the lift and is always moving through the position so I'd argue that you can't define it as sitting. They've done it infront of 3 different judging panels this season and had no problems, so I'd be very surprised if it was called illegal now.

    V/M had what is to me a clear sitting on shoulders moment in their FD last year: http://youtu.be/o1Oa39Uojj0?t=5m32s, but as far as I can recall never had problems? Or is it different as she is facing backwards?
     
  5. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    I believe (can't prove it though!) that sitting on the shoulders rule was meant to prevent the pairs-type lifts where the lady sometimes literally sits on the man's shoulder. (Given that ice dance also doesn't allow over the head lifts, etc. It seems to be in that spirit.) I don't think any of these very brief transitions was meant to be encompassed. Surely I/K's team sought clarification (or was already certain) before putting 3 lifts in which encompass some interpretation of that rule. As for V/M's Carmen lift, her butt (on which she would "sit") was not on his shoulders. She was basically supporting herself with her legs and core strength. The rule doesn't say "the lady should not drape her legs on the man's shoulders." (Although it might in the future...) Anyway, as last minute changes go, V/M "heard through the grapevine" that the judges were going to call their goose lift illegal because of her dismount and did have to change it at the last minute (after they had already been competing it that way.) And the way things have been going so far this season with all of the fun? surprises, I'd say maybe no team is 100% safe from new found rules/ applications.
     
  6. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    And that's why I'd like to see what "sitting" and "shoulders" are defined, preferably with a 1 sec limit to avoid arguing about transitional movements.

    But that's not how it reads now.

    Tessa was sitting -if you use the dictionary.com def which involves having your weight rest on your thighs or buttocks (in her case, thighs) on Scott's shoulders
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sit

    The part about her "core" is pretty laughable. Anybody sitting on a stool or backless chair of any kind, including somebody's shoulders, is held sitting upright by their core.

    On the other hand, I can find you another dictionary that only mentions buttocks in conjunction with sitting.

    Several posters have postulated that facing forward sitting on shoulders is somehow different than facing backward sitting on shoulders. That's possible.

    But the rule does not specify at this time. And that is why clarification is needed.

    Elena's buttocks were for sure on Nikita's shoulder twice, with her facing forward, and that's what was bearing the majority of her weight. Is it different because it was one shoulder? Or because it was too short a transition?

    Again, clarify the rule before some poor team gets marked down and hasn't a clue why.

    Like all those skaters (and Johnny Weir) who thought flutzing was bad, but lipping was just fine, and it all changed between one year and the next, I'd hate to see dancers led down the primrose path by the ISU without some warning. I would hope the ISU might, you know, clarify the rules before there are any rude surprises.

    All the elite teams are skilled enough & smart enough to avoid such illegal positions, if someone will only tell them what positions those are, and how they are defined.
     
  7. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the core part is laughable at all. Sit with your ass on a stool and then sit with your ass hanging off the stool and tell me there isn't a difference in how you utilize your core.
     
  8. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    There's no difference at all for me. In either case, if I relaxed my core, I'd fall over.
     
  9. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    There is most certainly a difference. It's not even debatable.
     
  10. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Physics reads this and it sure finds it laughable. Not the same contact, not the same support, not even the same center of gravity. Since you're so fond of Wikipedia, you might want to check. Weight balance (and transfer) doesn't work like that. Especially when the object is moving.
     
  11. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference, but there isn't enough of a difference to a reasonably healthy adult. Most children are comfortable supporting their bodies on gymnasium playground where their butt isn't the seat contact. I wouldn't file that core strength and balance under athlete level.

    I don't think this is the point though. The point that there have been plenty of examples of shoulder sitting, that seemingly violate the rules. I think they need to get rid of the rule all together if this is going to be the case. It makes it seem like they're just going to pick and choose who to penalize and that's going to make any team that is penalized feel unfairly targeted. I personally think it's a pointless rule anyway.
     
  12. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    This reminds me of when V/M were told that their Goose dismount "might" be illegal shortly before they were to skate their FD in the 2010 Olympics. All season long they had a different dismount for Tessa and then "the word" came out that the jump she did off Scott's leg could possibly be illegal. The dismount they used was something they came up with, basically at the last minute.

    Different tech panels? Some "back stage" lobbying? I doubt we will ever know.

    I would certainly hope that nothing similar takes place against any of the skaters either in Sochi or at Worlds.
     
  13. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    I think there should be a general rule, that if you've competed in two international competitions with the same elements, that your elements should be "passed". Assuming you're doing them the exact same way and there is no botch or delay of course. It makes no sense for an element to be okay for the first four competitions, but not the last. There has to be some measure, some standard of consistency with the judges, or it's all BS.

    I thought the goose change turned out very pretty and in a lot of ways suited the program better, but they shouldn't have had to change it. What if it was a difficult change or change that messed with the levels and made them rethink their whole lift? It's just not right.
     
  14. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I have to totally agree with the part I bolded. I really liked what they used as a dismount for the Goose. That being said, I still enjoy when she jumps off as well.

    The fact they could come up with something that quickly, have it blend in seamlessly and then perform it so well blows my mind. Asking skaters to change up their program/element simply on the basis of "talk" just reeks of something extremely smelly going on in the world of figure skating. That shouldn't surprise me, though.

    ETA: I sincerely hope nothing like this takes place with any of the skaters competing this season. It's just not right to penalize/try to penalize/interpret the rules differently than what has been done/used all season.
     
  15. skatingguy

    skatingguy Active Member

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    Like when Joubert got a music with lyrics deduction at the 2008 World Championship after using the same piece of music all season.
     
  16. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    Wasn't there also an issue with the ending of VMs SD that year? Something about the move where he throws her up and she spins in the air, I think they had to change that by worlds?
     
  17. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

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    IIRC, Scott said they were informed the day of OD and they didn't know what they were going to do until they were on ice skating OD.
     
  18. rvi5

    rvi5 Active Member

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    Are you thinking about their goose lift? The original lift involved Tessa dismounting by jumping off Scott, while doing a spin and landing. Apparently it is illegal in Ice Dance to spin more than once during a jump, and the Goose dismount required about a 1.25 spin. V/M hadn't consider it a jump, since Tessa did not actually take-off from the ice. Although it was never officially declared illegal at a competition, there was talk it was being questioned. So as not to risk suddenly being penalized at a critical time (eg. Vancouver Olympics), it was removed. However, they still do the original version at shows.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  19. skatingguy

    skatingguy Active Member

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    The goose lift was changed before Canadian Championships, so I'm not sure about how much time they had or when they found out that the lift might be declared illegal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg4OcXWYQdc
     
  20. teaspoon

    teaspoon New Member

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    I think some people are conflating two different events. It happened twice that season: Once with the Goose lift, and once with the ending of their flamenco OD. With the Goose, my understanding is that they heard the jump dismount might be illegal well in advance of the Olympics, so they had time to come up with a new dismount during training. They performed the new version at Nationals. With the ending of the OD, it was deemed legal the entire season, including at the Olympics, and then they apparently only heard shortly before they were to perform it at Worlds that it might be deemed illegal. That was the one where they sort of improvised a new ending.

    I agree with those who say that this is a ridiculous way for officials to run things. If a move (or music choice) has been legal all season, they shouldn't be allowed to change their minds.
     
  21. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    teaspoon - thanks for clarifying, that's it, there were two separate issues, the Goose lift and the ending of the flamenco OD/SD
     
  22. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the rules have to be clarified so that everyone is on the same page and there is consistency throughout the events. The rules should also recognize the differences in strength and balance required for various 'sitting' positions. One of the lifts in question here involves the female partner having to manage rotational force while pulling up her core and using these muscles as well as those in her thighs to maintain the position, so I don't think that should be considered sitting. I think the rules should be specific about contact points and the amount of the body that is resting on the partner--they should specify that the partners share the work load in the lifts such that the female is required to support a lot of her own weight in order to achieve a level 4.


    Lena and Nikita have focused on really improving their lifts this year (and Nikita has the bruises to prove it!) and I hope they do not face any deductions. Their last rotational is the only one I am not crazy about and I hope they change that. I agree they were overmarked at TEB but at least they are planning to add transitions. I think they really connect to this music and just need to add more substance and refine their lines. I want to see them skate closer together but that will take time. Right now I want to see them get their levels, add more content and smooth out their positions. I can't wait to see the results of their work with Vishneva. I still believe Lena and Nikita are the next great Russian team, and I hope they have a very special moment in Sochi :)
     
  23. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

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    It's a shame they are not at the GPF. If only they had been marked better at NHK.
     
  24. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

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    The judging in the short dance today was awful.
    P/B get punished for bad twizzles but D/W don't, they just get rewarded with a World Record score.
    How is that allowed to happen ?.
    I would have had it;
    1st V/M
    2nd W/P
    3rd D/W
    4th B/S
    5th P/B
    6th C/L
     
  25. Dolore

    Dolore Member

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    The judges obviously do not care one bit about the sport anymore. They are so keen on giving DW an OGM that they completely ignore how they or the other teams actually skate. People worry about Russian politics for a bronze medal when even the gold wont be nothing but a farce. This sport has lost every credibility.
     
  26. morqet

    morqet Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know what the illegal move C/L got a deduction for was? Again, it's very strange that a dance that was fine the two previous times they performed it is now being questioned.

    B/S are being held up by their PCS so much. They just don't seem to be able to get comfortable with the finnstep.
     
  27. icefan1005

    icefan1005 New Member

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    It's laughable how the IJS was supposed to give ice dance credibility. Even if fans can follow the TES on the screen, the PCS is easy to manipulate to give a team the lead.
     
  28. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

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    B/S have more power than P/B & W/P but not the silky smooth style of W/P or the original choreography of P/B.
    The judges should be held to account over D/W marks. Was that really a world record score ?.
    I can name 10 other SD's better than that over the past three seasons (At least).
    It's just awful.
    What will the judges do if D/W have a fall in Sochi ?. You can't cover that up.
     
  29. Dolore

    Dolore Member

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    I would believe the best for this sport would be to get kicked out of the Olympics for a couple of years so that they can finally clean up the mess. It would such for skaters and fans but the sport could profit from it. But what can one expect when the people in charge and the judges are still the same that already lied and cheated decades ago ? The new system wasnt enough. They needed new people and get rid of the old ones.
     
  30. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

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    This was such a bad result. How can you give a World Record score to that ?!. It's a massive insult to the other 5 couples who are working just as hard.
    I really think now that D/W already have an OGM around their neck. 3 months before the Olympics.
    What's the point of changing the judging system & making Ice Dance harder if you still hand the top couple a win EVERY TIME ?.
    If I was Tessa or Scott I would be fuming.