If you like both D/W & V/M but love other couples..........

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by PashaFan, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,476
    There is a difference, but there isn't enough of a difference to a reasonably healthy adult. Most children are comfortable supporting their bodies on gymnasium playground where their butt isn't the seat contact. I wouldn't file that core strength and balance under athlete level.

    I don't think this is the point though. The point that there have been plenty of examples of shoulder sitting, that seemingly violate the rules. I think they need to get rid of the rule all together if this is going to be the case. It makes it seem like they're just going to pick and choose who to penalize and that's going to make any team that is penalized feel unfairly targeted. I personally think it's a pointless rule anyway.
  2. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,804
    This reminds me of when V/M were told that their Goose dismount "might" be illegal shortly before they were to skate their FD in the 2010 Olympics. All season long they had a different dismount for Tessa and then "the word" came out that the jump she did off Scott's leg could possibly be illegal. The dismount they used was something they came up with, basically at the last minute.

    Different tech panels? Some "back stage" lobbying? I doubt we will ever know.

    I would certainly hope that nothing similar takes place against any of the skaters either in Sochi or at Worlds.
  3. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,476
    I think there should be a general rule, that if you've competed in two international competitions with the same elements, that your elements should be "passed". Assuming you're doing them the exact same way and there is no botch or delay of course. It makes no sense for an element to be okay for the first four competitions, but not the last. There has to be some measure, some standard of consistency with the judges, or it's all BS.

    I thought the goose change turned out very pretty and in a lot of ways suited the program better, but they shouldn't have had to change it. What if it was a difficult change or change that messed with the levels and made them rethink their whole lift? It's just not right.
  4. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,804
    I have to totally agree with the part I bolded. I really liked what they used as a dismount for the Goose. That being said, I still enjoy when she jumps off as well.

    The fact they could come up with something that quickly, have it blend in seamlessly and then perform it so well blows my mind. Asking skaters to change up their program/element simply on the basis of "talk" just reeks of something extremely smelly going on in the world of figure skating. That shouldn't surprise me, though.

    ETA: I sincerely hope nothing like this takes place with any of the skaters competing this season. It's just not right to penalize/try to penalize/interpret the rules differently than what has been done/used all season.
  5. skatingguy

    skatingguy Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    474
    Like when Joubert got a music with lyrics deduction at the 2008 World Championship after using the same piece of music all season.
  6. volunteer

    volunteer Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    176
    Wasn't there also an issue with the ending of VMs SD that year? Something about the move where he throws her up and she spins in the air, I think they had to change that by worlds?
  7. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
    Messages:
    608
    IIRC, Scott said they were informed the day of OD and they didn't know what they were going to do until they were on ice skating OD.
  8. rvi5

    rvi5 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Are you thinking about their goose lift? The original lift involved Tessa dismounting by jumping off Scott, while doing a spin and landing. Apparently it is illegal in Ice Dance to spin more than once during a jump, and the Goose dismount required about a 1.25 spin. V/M hadn't consider it a jump, since Tessa did not actually take-off from the ice. Although it was never officially declared illegal at a competition, there was talk it was being questioned. So as not to risk suddenly being penalized at a critical time (eg. Vancouver Olympics), it was removed. However, they still do the original version at shows.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  9. skatingguy

    skatingguy Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    474
    The goose lift was changed before Canadian Championships, so I'm not sure about how much time they had or when they found out that the lift might be declared illegal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg4OcXWYQdc
  10. teaspoon

    teaspoon New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    12
    I think some people are conflating two different events. It happened twice that season: Once with the Goose lift, and once with the ending of their flamenco OD. With the Goose, my understanding is that they heard the jump dismount might be illegal well in advance of the Olympics, so they had time to come up with a new dismount during training. They performed the new version at Nationals. With the ending of the OD, it was deemed legal the entire season, including at the Olympics, and then they apparently only heard shortly before they were to perform it at Worlds that it might be deemed illegal. That was the one where they sort of improvised a new ending.

    I agree with those who say that this is a ridiculous way for officials to run things. If a move (or music choice) has been legal all season, they shouldn't be allowed to change their minds.
  11. volunteer

    volunteer Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    176
    teaspoon - thanks for clarifying, that's it, there were two separate issues, the Goose lift and the ending of the flamenco OD/SD
  12. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,748
    I agree that the rules have to be clarified so that everyone is on the same page and there is consistency throughout the events. The rules should also recognize the differences in strength and balance required for various 'sitting' positions. One of the lifts in question here involves the female partner having to manage rotational force while pulling up her core and using these muscles as well as those in her thighs to maintain the position, so I don't think that should be considered sitting. I think the rules should be specific about contact points and the amount of the body that is resting on the partner--they should specify that the partners share the work load in the lifts such that the female is required to support a lot of her own weight in order to achieve a level 4.


    Lena and Nikita have focused on really improving their lifts this year (and Nikita has the bruises to prove it!) and I hope they do not face any deductions. Their last rotational is the only one I am not crazy about and I hope they change that. I agree they were overmarked at TEB but at least they are planning to add transitions. I think they really connect to this music and just need to add more substance and refine their lines. I want to see them skate closer together but that will take time. Right now I want to see them get their levels, add more content and smooth out their positions. I can't wait to see the results of their work with Vishneva. I still believe Lena and Nikita are the next great Russian team, and I hope they have a very special moment in Sochi :)
  13. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    665
    It's a shame they are not at the GPF. If only they had been marked better at NHK.
  14. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    665
    The judging in the short dance today was awful.
    P/B get punished for bad twizzles but D/W don't, they just get rewarded with a World Record score.
    How is that allowed to happen ?.
    I would have had it;
    1st V/M
    2nd W/P
    3rd D/W
    4th B/S
    5th P/B
    6th C/L
  15. Dolore

    Dolore New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    57
    The judges obviously do not care one bit about the sport anymore. They are so keen on giving DW an OGM that they completely ignore how they or the other teams actually skate. People worry about Russian politics for a bronze medal when even the gold wont be nothing but a farce. This sport has lost every credibility.
  16. morqet

    morqet Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    948
    Does anyone know what the illegal move C/L got a deduction for was? Again, it's very strange that a dance that was fine the two previous times they performed it is now being questioned.

    B/S are being held up by their PCS so much. They just don't seem to be able to get comfortable with the finnstep.
  17. icefan1005

    icefan1005 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    129
    It's laughable how the IJS was supposed to give ice dance credibility. Even if fans can follow the TES on the screen, the PCS is easy to manipulate to give a team the lead.
  18. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    665
    B/S have more power than P/B & W/P but not the silky smooth style of W/P or the original choreography of P/B.
    The judges should be held to account over D/W marks. Was that really a world record score ?.
    I can name 10 other SD's better than that over the past three seasons (At least).
    It's just awful.
    What will the judges do if D/W have a fall in Sochi ?. You can't cover that up.
  19. Dolore

    Dolore New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    57
    I would believe the best for this sport would be to get kicked out of the Olympics for a couple of years so that they can finally clean up the mess. It would such for skaters and fans but the sport could profit from it. But what can one expect when the people in charge and the judges are still the same that already lied and cheated decades ago ? The new system wasnt enough. They needed new people and get rid of the old ones.
  20. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    665
    This was such a bad result. How can you give a World Record score to that ?!. It's a massive insult to the other 5 couples who are working just as hard.
    I really think now that D/W already have an OGM around their neck. 3 months before the Olympics.
    What's the point of changing the judging system & making Ice Dance harder if you still hand the top couple a win EVERY TIME ?.
    If I was Tessa or Scott I would be fuming.
  21. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    9,884
    Any time you can align your center of gravity with your support, it doesn't require a lot of core strength to maintain a stable equilbrium. Depending which way your butt is hanging off the stool, you lean a bit to realign & compensate.

    There are a number of classic balance toys that illustrate how this stuff works.


    You can even have your center of gravity below the point of the support (and a very small point of support at that), and still have a very stable point of equilibrium, even if it looks quite hair raising & impossible.

    You can balance a wood toy with a floppy belt jammed into it on the very tip of your finger.
    This is a scout craft called a Sky Hook.

    http://www.phys.vt.edu/~demo/images/Mechanics/m65_1.jpg


    If you are interested in this stuff, the place to look is Classical Mechanics textbooks. Feynmann's is particularly charming.
    Landau & Lifschitz is still excellent.

    Tessa has great core strength. She just doesn't need to use it when doing a transition through a sitting position on Scott's shoulders.

    But that's not the point.

    The point is, that the rules on lifts have been applied in some very inconsistent ways, including to Tessa & Scott this season, but also to less renowned teams, like Guignard & Fabbri.

    I'd like to see the rules made more clear. I don't see who it hurts to define "sitting" and "shoulders" a little more clearly. It certainly wouldn't hurt Tessa & Scott, because they are not using any lifts with anything like sitting on shoulders this season.

    But it might help Elena & Nikita, and for that matter Charlene Guignard & Marco Fabbri to have a second's "transition" allowed for sitting, just as is given for gyno lifts. I'd like their lifts to be explicitly legal. I'd like Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift to be explicitly legal. They are all great lifts, and I'd like to see them.

    I don't see why anyone would disagree with that.
  22. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    7,915
    ?? Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift is explicitly legal. It was never called illegal last season, at any competition. You may question it, but there was never a question raised by the *judges* about that lift. That means that when the judges looked at the criteria, and then looked at that lift, the lift met the criteria. That's why you able to see this "great lift' all season long.

    Unless you want a picture of Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift added to the rule book with the words "Here is an example of a legal lift," I'm not sure how much more explicit you can get.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  23. icefan1005

    icefan1005 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    129
    I don't think that your comparison with a stool is a very accurate. That "stool" you are comparing Scott with is stationary & has three or four legs maybe while Scott is a human being who is rotating on two legs on skates on ice. Tessa obviously is at a height due to being on Scott's shoulders unlike when you're sitting on a stool and your core is closer to the ground thus it's much stable. Keep in mind, they are rotating which makes it harder for the senses to maintain a state of equilibrium. Very different from just sitting on a plain, old stool.

    So if you were on Scott's shoulders, you'd just sit there like you were on a stool? You wouldn't strengthen your core more and hold yourself better? Because if you fall, your partner does as well.
  24. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    427
    I was going to just leave this discussion alone, but since it just keeps going I'll say my two cents. You may talk about stools, toys, and classical mechanics textbooks as much as you'd like, but it means nothing. None of those things is a lift, or more specifically, the lift in question. Have you ever done a lift in this position? I have. (In a contemporary dance duet to "Almost Lover") And I can guarantee you that it takes a great deal of core strength. Not because I read it somewhere in a textbook, but because I did it. Furthermore, I'm sure that given the various quick transitions going on and the speed of Scott's rotation, that Tessa's lift was even more difficult and required more strength. Not only do you have to pull yourself into an upright position and maintain good posture (which is much easier said than done), you have to be very aware of your partner's head and compensate for that. And if you don't want to take my word on it, it's a pretty popular type of lift in competitive dance these days so you can probably find tutorials and such on Youtube.


    Now, the real reason I came in here was to figure out what happened with Anna and Luca's "illegal" move? Did anyone figure that out yet?
  25. icefan1005

    icefan1005 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    129
    Very informative post! There is nothing quite like experience. :respec:
  26. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,417
    I can't really think of a result this Olympics that would result in Ice dance getting kicked out.

    1/ Even people at FSU can't really explain/agree upon the breakdown of judging in ice dance with the 2 top teams. There won't be a clear wuzrobbed at any level that the media can jump on. There seems to be more fuss on FSU about the results for B & S - but even that isn't completely agreed upon.

    2/ I hate to say it but if D & W win with clearly flawed programs (and I have a hard time imagining that since they seem to rarely make mistakes - let alone glaring ones) I just don't see the North American Media causing a stir about it. It would be an American team winning and I just can't see that ruffling too many powerful feathers. There might be a bit of puzzlement in Canadian press - but if any only a bit probably and without a lot of power or influence I should imagine. And even then - a lot of people have declared Canadians whiny and in a much less clear situation it might just be written off as sour grapes. And likely they will be put into a lump with Bourne and Kraatz fans and even Sale and Pelletier fans.

    3/ If the Americans win - I can't see the media worrying too much about the other medals. If B and S win bronze or even silver even if the result it is deemed wrong by figure skating fans - I just can't see it getting too much coverage by North American Media. The Olympics are also in Russia and Russia has always been a powerhouse in ice dance. It won't surprise most media and casual fans to see Russian ice dancers in medal position. And they were the bronze medalists last year and P and B and W & P were both injured last year - and C & L are not super well known around the world. And of course it will be a lovely story for the host nation without taking anything away from the American victory.

    I may be misunderstanding who would have power in this situation to make such a decision? Maybe Cinquanta would stick up for C and L? I just can't see it getting the trajectory to get rid of the sport. Even when there was power on board for SLC the result was a change in the system - not the sport being kicked out.
  27. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348

    Last I checked, Scott is not a three-legged stool. The center of gravity in the case of the stool is the stool. It's stable. The legs aren't spinning in a spinning stool, the seat is spinning. The legs are the support. Tessa's support is a two-legged human being on the edges of a couple of skate blades. Therefore, Tessa's center of balance must accomodate Scott's rotation around his axis, supported only by his skate blades, not three immobile stool legs.

    The analogy here is just incomprehensible. This lift is an interdependent move by two skaters, not Tessa vaulting onto a stable element with a spinning lid.

    Not to mention, Tessa's core strength comes into play not simply in her ability to hold the position, but her ability to HIT the position after vaulting into it - "it" being onto the shoulders of a human being moving on his skates, hold it, and then transition out of it. She's not climbing up there either, she has to hit the moving target, arrest her own momentum atop his rotation (his shoulders aren't spinning around the stable axis of his body nailed to the ice - his entire body is spinning and balanced only on blades, so she has to be mindful of HIS equilibrium).

    I can, however, think of several lifts where the mechanics are basically the liftee crawls up or is hoisted up aligned with the lifter's center of gravity, and the pose is all she wrote. This isn't one of them.
  28. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    665
    Bad judging aside (I'm quite grumpy still), what did people think of the skating by the other four couples today ?.
    It's too bad P/B could not skate their best & they were quite slow. I don't think they will move up in the FD.
    W/P were fantastic. Fantastic Finn Step. Pure class. I hope I take to their FD more than I did at Skate Canada & COR.
    C/L were lovely. Such flow. I hope they can go out in the FD and skate a PB.
    B/S were really good & strong but I felt that their Finn Step let them down. I hope they have worked on their FD since COR.
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,990
    I had no idea this thread was created just so posters can talk about D/W (about how terrible they are) and V/M (mechanics of using one's core in a lift).
  30. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    665
    This thread if for ALL lovers of Ice Dance. No D/W hate here. It was a bad result today. Can people not tell the truth ?.
    Find me posts on this thread that has been unfair to D/W.
    Most on here love all the top Ice Dance couples.
    If you are a D/W uber then you have your thread.
    This thread is for fan's of ALL couples.
    Everyone is welcome.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  31. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    9,884
    I'd also like to know what move of C&L was illegal. Was it that brief lift they do? I thought that it was Ok to have small moves like that???

    ETA every time I post from a phone, Auto Correct screws me over one way or the other :lol:
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  32. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,459
    Not quite "last minute". The change was made sometime after the GP season, but I thought it was before Canadian Nationals.

    It would have be be gold for someone other than D/W and V/M, and even then it would take more that bad judging. It would need to be something more scandalous, like uncovering deals or cheating judges like in SLC.

    It seems impossible to have an ice dance discussion without the arrival of ubers who feel a compulsive need need to hammer their points, even when expressly uninvited by the thread title. They seem constitutionally incapable of letting any criticism for one or praise of the other escape without rebuttal (even when it means just making up BS and/or ignoring the actual rulebook). Do these folks imagine the ISU judges and callers all spend their idle hours here and will will finally see the light based on the brilliance and insight of these amateur posts?

    Returning to the topic of this thread, Anyone know yet what caused 2 point deduction for C/L in the SD today for an illegal move. I watched the dance on Icenetwork and nothing immediately jumped out. Their ending left was a little gyno, but not offensively so to my eye. The only unusual move than stood out to me was the gliding moment where her body weigh is supported by her knee on his foot. Is there a rule against that?
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  33. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    3,368
    The issue, I believe, is that most people don't self-identify as ubers, even when posting 10x/day in the fan threads or asking each other to write angry letters to the ISU over the SD result this morning. People like to believe that they see each event objectively despite their personal (largely emotional) preference.

    Re: C/L and the illegal element-- There was talk it was the jump turn they do in unison in the intro choreography right when they really start moving across the ice. How terrifying that it can go multiple events and then get called like that. It's such a hit.
  34. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,459
    Right now, those 2 points would not have made any difference in their placement.

    I had noticed the jumps, but they were only half-rotation jumps and dance jumps are expressly permitted. They are mentioned as a difficult feature for assigning levels for some elements.

    Here is the general rule re jumps in dance:

    "17. Jumps:
    a) Jump – A jump of not more than one (1) revolution, which may be executed by only one (1) partner at a time. This jump may be performed either holding hand(s) or separated, but the distance between partners must not be more than two (2) arms-lengths apart;
    b) Dance Jump – A small jump not more than ½ a revolution, used to change foot or direction. Such jumps must be executed in a dance hold or at not more than 2 arms-lengths apart. Both partners may jump at the same time;
    c) Hop – A small jump without revolution."

    I guess maybe the callers decided they were more than 2 arms-lengths apart.

    I was curious why this had not come up earlier, so I watched their SD from NHK again. The GFP moves got a lot more air. At NHK, they did not clearly leave the ice. Those looked more like turns on their toepicks.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  35. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    665
    B/S were lucky to get 4th today. The Russian fed should really look at pushing I/K now instead. B/S need to change their FD.
    V/M & D/W were as amazing as ever. I thought Tessa & Scott just edged it.
    SO HAPPY FOR NATHALIE & FABIAN !. Their FD is so beautiful.
    W/P should have got 4th. Why such a low technical score ?.
  36. morqet

    morqet Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    948
    Andrew had an obvious error in the CiSt, as soon as I saw it I knew they'd drop points. It took 3 points of their BV. Both step sequences were shaky actually.

    I wish I/K had made the GPF, so we'd see if TEB was a fluke or not. I think they would have had a real chance to beat B/S and strengthen their position going into Nationals.
  37. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2005
    Messages:
    30,765
    the junior high school kid in me just released itself for about 30 seconds while I read this. From all the postings about how gorgeous the man is..one would think he has a significant third leg.

    The majority of posters here are V/M fans. there has been extensive bashing of the V/M-D/W scores. When I read the OP post, I wondered with V/M fan came out of the woodwork. You have the V/M thread to bash D/W in, yet you all seem to take over any and all dance threads.
    This. on all accounts.
  38. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,232
    I'm so happy for P-B. They needed a good skate like that to make a statement. They're still here and in medal contention :)
  39. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    9,884
    Absolutely thrilled for Nathalie & Fabian today! I love their Little Prince FD!
  40. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,748
    sooooo happy for Nathalie & Fabian :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2: I love the many different emotions we get from them with this FD, each one beautifully expressed through the movement. They are true dancers, and I feel privileged to watch them skate this FD. Just bringing this excellent post over here from one of the "Oy..." thread. Thank you again for this, MissJD!