If you like both D/W & V/M but love other couples..........

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by PashaFan, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. Cyn

    Cyn Well-Known Member

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    And yet, even with the ridiculous overscoring of B/S in the SD, their score was still less than what I/K's SD received at TEB last weekend :COP:
  2. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    The W/P thread thinks it's the end of the World.
    It always happens.
    The free dance will be very interesting.
    I think the gap will shorten.
    I do think B/S were a little stronger yesterday.
    It's close but W/P fan's seem to think they have a right to first place.
    That's too unfair on other couples.
    B/S were ahead of them at the Worlds in March so it's not a massive shock.
  3. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    I think the levels on the twizzles are determined by difficult entrance/ number of rotations. For instance if they catch their blade, to count as level 4 it has to be half a rotation before the twizzles start (I believe, :COP: )The execution is taken into account in the GOE. Sometimes the mess up makes one partner a rotation short and then it counts in the level. (Apparently this is what happened to VM at worlds, though I counted the correct number of rotations...)

    Pretty much we can know the rules as well as we want to, but we can't make the tech panel apply them. But they do have better angles and replay. I would agree that sometimes the tech panel makes questionable calls (looking at you TEB), but I haven't really analyzed CoR yet. I'll get there eventually...
  4. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    Here ya go. Scroll to page 20 for twizzle levels (the page numbered 20 at the bottom). http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 ID Levels of Difficulty.pdf

    I would analyze these for you, but honestly I'm not up for it right now, sorry! One has to be in the mood for this kind of crap, er, twizzle calling.
  5. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    The judging at COR was awful. W/P should have won. They should have won the free dance buy a lot more than they did. I did think B/S were slightly better/stronger in the SD but their FD was way below par.
    I think this is a bad sign for Sochi.
    P/B may get slowly buried before then.
    I wish the Russian Fed would push I/K rather than B/S as they (For me) have the wow factor.
    What does everybody think will happen at the Grand Prix Finals ?.
  6. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: You are just a delightful person, aren't you...
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  7. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

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    Do you really think it matters who actually IS the better pair as far as skating is concerned in a discipline such as ICE DANCE?^^
    Sweet.
  8. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    Wow. How rude. You asked why certain twizzles were called certain levels and I gave you the link as an answer. Apparently you were more interested in useless speculation than an actual informative answer, my bad. And yes, I am quite delightful, thank you!
  9. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

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    Well, I thank your for sharing the pdf file, MissJD, especially since I don't know a lot about certain twizzles and levels. This will help me a lot and I appreciate the information. :)
  10. teaspoon

    teaspoon New Member

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    Hey, dropping in to let anyone who's interested know that there's a new news & analysis site for ice dance (and pairs) that has some cool features: http://www.twofortheice.com/

    They have a survey going on right now for ice dance fans here. I took it and it's got some interesting questions, so I thought I'd pass it along. I'll be curious to read about the results when it's done.

    Here's hoping everyone who qualified for the GPF skates their best (and gets scored accordingly)!
  11. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    Let's hope the judging is much better in Japan.
    There maybe a backlash against B/S after such poor judging at COR but I really hope they improve their Free Dance.
  12. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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  13. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    The only problem I have with V/M FD is it's a little bit like the one in 2010. Slow paced almost classical. I would have liked to see them do something really out there. If they win Gold next year in Sochi & play their two OG's together there would be very little difference in mood.
  14. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    ISU Grand Prix article, here's the part about ice dance... apparently they decided Nat and Fab won silver at TEB, lol. (probably just an oversight)

    And here are the GP scores compared, just in case anyone is interested! I'm really looking forward to the final! I just hope everyone skates their best and receives the scores they deserve!

    DW at SkAM 188.23
    DW at NHK 186.65
    VM at SC 181.03
    VM at TEB 180.96
    WP at SC 175.23
    PB at TEB 171.08
    CL at SkAM 168.49
    BS at CoR 168.32
    PB at CoC 165.68
    BS at CoC 163.42
    WP at CoR 163.14
    CL at NHK 160.06
  15. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    That's a funny article. Patrick Chan has a World best score -Davis & White are credited with a personal best FD - but it is also a World Record FD, which the article doesn't mention.
    And as you said, they say Nat & Fab beat I&K at TEB...:slinkaway: as they should have.
    http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/phsdfd.htm
  16. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    Its interesting how V/M's score barely dropped between SC and TEB -only by 0.07 points.
  17. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be interesting if they would have skated better in one of those events, and worse in the other. But it so happened that they skated their SD better at TEB, and FD better (more precisely, with less mistakes) at SC, so it leveled out.
  18. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    When you think of it they did the same thing in 2009 GP - with mistakes in the OD at SC and Mistakes in the FD at TEB (they got -2.00 deductions too!) maybe history repeating itself? :lol:
  19. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    The number of rotations are indeed the starting point for assigning levels. Here is my attempt to summarize the ISU guidance on twizzle levels:

    Level 1- set of two twizzles on different edges, at least one rotation each

    Level 2 - two twizzles have different entry edge and turn in different direction + at least 2 rotations each + either:
    Option 1 - change of foot or steps between twizzles + 2 different added features
    Option 2 - skated on one foot + 1 added feature

    (Added features are grouped by position variations involving A) arms and upper body, B) leg positions, and C) other things like at least 3 rotations, partners crossing patterns, mirror twizzles, twizzles with partners face to face or back to back, entrance from a dance jump, third twizzle of at least 3 rotations)

    Level 3 - two twizzles have different entry edge and turn in different direction + at least 3 rotations each + either:
    Option 1 - change of foot or steps between twizzles + 2 different added features from different groups
    Option 2 - skated on one foot + 2 added features from from any group

    Level 4 - two twizzles have different entry edge and turn in different direction + at least 4 rotations each + either:
    Option 1 - change of foot or steps between twizzles + 3 different added features (one from each group)
    Option 2 - skated on one foot + 2 added features from from different groups

    When levels are lost due to errors it is usually because one of the partners lost control of the edge (resulting in 3-turns rather than twizzles), which costs them rotations.

    As MissJD mentioned, another common error relates to problems or delays grabbing the blade or boot.
  20. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    Thanks for laying it out for us Susan! So many considerations!

    There are also a few things that require a deduction of one (or two) levels such as pirouetting a rotation, even though the correct number is there! (I only mention this one because I've also seen it a few times this season!)

    Glad I'm just an arm chair judge! ;) haha
  21. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

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    This is what I thought happened and why I don't understand how B/S could've gotten a level 4. They definitely seemed to lose control of an edge.
  22. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    So the GPF is a week away. I took time yeaterday to watch a few of the Grand Prix events again.
    I still think C/L are not getting the credit for their choreography.
    I still thing D/W are getting over-marked.
    I still think W/P were the true winners in Russia BUT this may work in their favour for the GPF's.
    V/M will have to step up their game & REALLY go for it.
  23. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    PashaFan, agree on everything. Not exactly on W-P, though, as they did drop those levels in the short dance? But I agree that it will have a political impact regardless. I wish it weren't the case. If V-M go for it, I can see them taking this title for the first time. Unlike last year, the problem here is that they are not getting levels on two lifts on the FD. If they are solid and skate well, they might take it.
  24. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    But when you coach is also your greatest rivals coach, how much can you trust them to do the best for you ?.
    I think V/M needed to change coaches for this season. Marina does not seem to be helping them to get higher levels.
    On the subject of W/P, I think that they were so much better than B/S in the free dance that they should have clawed the points back that they lost in the SD.
    The W/P threads seem to think that if the judging was fair that they should win Bronze in Sochi & the only reason they would not is if the judges were wrong.
    This makes me upset because there are 8 or 9 couples who can compete on a even level with W/P & even beat them with fair judging.
    Give the likes of C/L, P/B, I/K & others some credit.
  25. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I agree, I think P-B are very much in this, for instance. They are more solid technically, not to mention better dancers.
  26. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    8 or 9? I'd say there are 5 couples who can compete for bronze - W/P, P/B, B/S, I/K and C/L. Sure, Chock/Bates beat I/K at the last Worlds and W/P at the World Team Trophy. And Shibutanis have beaten I/K for several times. But that doesn't mean that C/B or S/S can compete for the Olympic bronze, because W/P and I/K were far from their best when they were beaten by those teams, while C/B and S/S were close (or at least closer) to their best. I don't think C/B or S/S currently have the potential to score over a 100 in the FD. So, I wouldn't call that competing on an even level. Anyway, who are the two or three remaining couples that can compete with W/P in your opinion? Riazanova/Tkachenko, Zhiganshina/Gazsi and Hubbell/Donohue who are not better than C/B and S/S, and won't probably even be on the team? Paul/Islam?
  27. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    And yet, surprisingly- neither couple has left, so they both clearly trust her a lot.
  28. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Whereas Igor would probably have fixed this long ago. I was surprised that both teams stayed with Marina when Igor left to set up his own program across town. The more even these teams became, the more it seemed like they should have different coaches.

    I'd agree with this list (though I still think I/K are getting overmarked and belong here more by politiks than merit). I think the others are seen as a notch below for now. I suppose one of the others could sneak onto the podium if we have a weird communal splat fest like in the 06 ODs.
  29. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    Strange things can happen at the Olympics. Look at Salt Lake City. I thought Irina/Ilia would have been dumped after a poor showing at the Euros but they cleaned up their OD & started getting fantastic marks & Shae-Lyn/Victor who beat Marina/Gwendal in the GPF were the one's who got dumped.
    By the time Sochi comes around a lot could have gone on. Couples change their programs, get injured or have poor form.
    For me, the only couple who can walk in to Sochi confident of the judges backing is D/W.
    I would love to think that the judging will be fair but with what has gone on in the Grand Prix Events you never know.
  30. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    Shae-Lyn&Vicor had bad programs that season. What happened ta the GPF was ... funny. I remember Anissina saying how "Canadians had more energy that night". Oh how I love coded 6.0 judging. At least we knew who gave which mark.

    They got kicked off the podium by falling on a lift they fell on 3 years prior (Worlds 99) and they had it as their last second move so they ended the program on the ice whcih took them 0.2 points.

    Lobacheva and Averbukh were inured that season and changed their FD in Sep 2001 so Euros was their test competition.

    Maybe this time also whoever wins bronze at GPF will be like Drobiazko&Vanagas in 2002 dumped at the Olympics.
  31. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    I think the GPF will tell us a lot about what the judges are looking for come Sochi.
    B/S need to make some major changes to their FD. It was just a mess at COR. They can do so much better. I loved their FD last season.
  32. Dolore

    Dolore New Member

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    I wondered about I/K's free dance lifts. In two of them it looks like Elena is sitting on Nikita's shoulders. But that would be illegal right ? Now so far the judges didn‘t seem to mind but what if they are in a bad mood or try to appease the public after the latest controversies ? I would hate for I/K to lose points because of something that they could easily avoid.
  33. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I think that the ISU dance tech committee needs to define "sitting" and "shoulders," and "back," if they want to have their rule about no sitting on shoulders or back be usable for disallowing some or all of a lift, considering the stuff they have allowed in the past. It isn't fair to all the teams to have it be so fuzzy, and it will be particularly unfair if their nonenforcement of the rule in the past inspires some team to include a questionable move, which some tech panel suddenly decides is illegal, at, say, the Olympics.

    Which of their 3 lifts particularly worried you, Pashafan?

    In their combination lift, it looks like she sits on one shoulder, facing forward, before she hits her position, and then she sits back down on one shoulder for a short bit before starting the rotational part of the combination:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDWI0SnbLA&feature=player_detailpage#t=85

    And in the lift where Nikita has one knee on the ice, she also moves through a sitting position
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDWI0SnbLA&feature=player_detailpage#t=111

    And there is even a transitory sit on shoulders moment in the rotation lift
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDWI0SnbLA&feature=player_detailpage#t=166

    I think that the tech panel should include a "for more than 1 second" limitation on sitting. That would make these transitional moves be clearly legal.
  34. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    In I/K's case she always has another contact point for support in the lift and is always moving through the position so I'd argue that you can't define it as sitting. They've done it infront of 3 different judging panels this season and had no problems, so I'd be very surprised if it was called illegal now.

    V/M had what is to me a clear sitting on shoulders moment in their FD last year: http://youtu.be/o1Oa39Uojj0?t=5m32s, but as far as I can recall never had problems? Or is it different as she is facing backwards?
  35. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    I believe (can't prove it though!) that sitting on the shoulders rule was meant to prevent the pairs-type lifts where the lady sometimes literally sits on the man's shoulder. (Given that ice dance also doesn't allow over the head lifts, etc. It seems to be in that spirit.) I don't think any of these very brief transitions was meant to be encompassed. Surely I/K's team sought clarification (or was already certain) before putting 3 lifts in which encompass some interpretation of that rule. As for V/M's Carmen lift, her butt (on which she would "sit") was not on his shoulders. She was basically supporting herself with her legs and core strength. The rule doesn't say "the lady should not drape her legs on the man's shoulders." (Although it might in the future...) Anyway, as last minute changes go, V/M "heard through the grapevine" that the judges were going to call their goose lift illegal because of her dismount and did have to change it at the last minute (after they had already been competing it that way.) And the way things have been going so far this season with all of the fun? surprises, I'd say maybe no team is 100% safe from new found rules/ applications.
  36. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    And that's why I'd like to see what "sitting" and "shoulders" are defined, preferably with a 1 sec limit to avoid arguing about transitional movements.

    But that's not how it reads now.

    Tessa was sitting -if you use the dictionary.com def which involves having your weight rest on your thighs or buttocks (in her case, thighs) on Scott's shoulders
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sit

    The part about her "core" is pretty laughable. Anybody sitting on a stool or backless chair of any kind, including somebody's shoulders, is held sitting upright by their core.

    On the other hand, I can find you another dictionary that only mentions buttocks in conjunction with sitting.

    Several posters have postulated that facing forward sitting on shoulders is somehow different than facing backward sitting on shoulders. That's possible.

    But the rule does not specify at this time. And that is why clarification is needed.

    Elena's buttocks were for sure on Nikita's shoulder twice, with her facing forward, and that's what was bearing the majority of her weight. Is it different because it was one shoulder? Or because it was too short a transition?

    Again, clarify the rule before some poor team gets marked down and hasn't a clue why.

    Like all those skaters (and Johnny Weir) who thought flutzing was bad, but lipping was just fine, and it all changed between one year and the next, I'd hate to see dancers led down the primrose path by the ISU without some warning. I would hope the ISU might, you know, clarify the rules before there are any rude surprises.

    All the elite teams are skilled enough & smart enough to avoid such illegal positions, if someone will only tell them what positions those are, and how they are defined.
  37. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the core part is laughable at all. Sit with your ass on a stool and then sit with your ass hanging off the stool and tell me there isn't a difference in how you utilize your core.
  38. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    There's no difference at all for me. In either case, if I relaxed my core, I'd fall over.
  39. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    There is most certainly a difference. It's not even debatable.
  40. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Physics reads this and it sure finds it laughable. Not the same contact, not the same support, not even the same center of gravity. Since you're so fond of Wikipedia, you might want to check. Weight balance (and transfer) doesn't work like that. Especially when the object is moving.