Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by TheIronLady, Jun 8, 2013.
I honestly was not a fan of that cut at all.
I just called it the Robin Wagner look because her hair cut and color was getting closer to Robin's style than Hughes. I know Billing had total control over her Olympic look, but I remember reading that going to Billings was Wagner's idea.
Does he still design and style skaters?
It was an improvement on the "Ramona Quimby" look she was sporting immediately prior to that.
Too bad that Sarah was pushed to try to look like Hamill and skate like Kwan. I probably would have liked her if she had developed her own style (and fixed her posture).
Has Robin Wagner had any successful skaters besides Sarah? I am not counting her blip with Sasha in 2004, as she in no way either helped to make Sasha, nor visibly that I can see helped to improve her in their brief time together. I would have credited her if Sasha won the 04 Nationals and/or Worlds under Wagner, hadnt had a now stripped down/weaker Swan Lake under Wagner, or had she stayed with her more than a quarter of a season, but none of this occured.
Fontana made her comeback under Wagner and qualified for the Olympics beating out Marchei, so I guess that semi counts as something.
I agree re Wagner and Cohen. Imo it was really under Tarasova that Cohen showed improvements.
Totally agree! Wagner did nothing for her. Certainly didnt help calm her competitive nerves since she fell and lost the Nationals and Worlds, and totally stripped down her Swan Lake. Had she done her original version of Swan Lake she might have won Worlds even with the mistakes, as it seems the judges were really wanting to give it to her there. However the mistakes, combined with the overall tenative performance, combined with Shizuka's triple-triples, combined with the bare bones choreography of Wagner's version, were too much together to overcome.
I saw some good things about her skating and even at times competitive progress in her second stint with Nicks too. Too bad she was injured most of the 04-05 and 05-06 seasons. Wagner was never more than a brief stopover until she decided on her next real coach after she decided to leave Tarasova.
Wagner's biggest skill seems to be self-congratulation. She is smarter than many others, but her skill as a choreographer is zero, and I don't know if she has ever reconciled with the Hughes.
I have wondered why Nicks was not given enough credit for improving Sasha. Tarasova pushed Sasha, but she was not improved as a competitor under her. She blew big chunks at '03 nationals and '03 worlds. She was worse there than at any competition while with Nicks. Okay there was '00 junior worlds and '06 senior worlds, but her Tarasova years were not a breakthrough.
Many think her choreography and actual skating skills (at least in the 2003-2004 season) improved. She also dominated the GP events until she lost the GPF to a deserving Fumie Suguri in the 2003-2004 season. I think what helped Tarasova's reputation was the Swan Lake LP and that she took on Shizuka Arakawa who won Worlds right after. I do think Tarasova was overrated in that respect because she only had Arakawa for a few weeks with Shizuka bombing her one full season with her. Arakawa did win the Olympics, but with Morosov.
I think the reason Nicks doesn't get as much credit is that in the beginning of Sasha's career, her choreography wasn't the best and her skating skills and ice coverage did leave a lot to be desired. Tarasova really helped in those respects and Sasha became the skater who was able to beat a totally on and technically outstanding Irina Slutskaya at the 2006 Olympics SP. Yes it was by hundredths of a point but the old Sasha may not have been able to do that. IMO, Sasha really improved in the period from 2003 to 2004. So her improvements as a skater was noted during the Tarasova period and already existed when she came back to him. As for her routines, she already had that Dark Eyes SP under Tarasova. People also knew her Romeo and Juliet was done by David Wilson. I think at the time, most people were happy to see her back in the West Coast where she said she was happiest and with Nicks because he knew how to deal with her.
Sarah didn't mention her in her HOF acceptance speech.
Can someone refresh my memory about what happened between Hughes and Robin Wagner?
What HOF did Sarah get into?
They waited so long to induct Kwan into the World Hall of Fame. Kwan has NINE USA titles and FIVE world titles and changed how ladies skating was done. Sarah has relatively little hardware. Her main accomplishment was inspiring skaters to not give up after one judge puts you in 10th in the SP. She did not influence the sport technically in the way Kwan did. She did not have an impact in style beyond the 2003 season when I saw a few skaters copy her hair style. I should hope Kwan was already in whatever HOF they admitted Sarah to.
I think it was due to Hughes being eligible for the HOF before Kwan due to Hughes leaving competitive skating earlier than Kwan. I think Kwan was inducted the year she was first eligible.
US Figure Skating Hall of Fame. She got in in 2010, but then, again, she was eligible before Michelle was.
Yes. Didn't Michelle get it as soon as she was eligible?
I guess they don't want to put you in the Hall of Fame until your career is definitively finished for several years. You could come back and do something like Tonya Harding, and they would have to remove you!
I think Sarah's SLC performance really drove home the point of needing a 3-3 to win. Of course no one did a 3-3 to win in 2006, but people couldn't have predicted that.
Already in 1992, commentators (Scott Hamilton for example) were talking about the need of a 3-3 (for Yamaguchi or Kerrigan, against Harding and Ito's 3 Axel). Then, it was talked about in 1996 1997 1998 2000 2001 with Kwan against Lu Chen, Lipinski or Slutskaya. JMO
Possibly, but I think had Kwan or Slutskaya done their 2002 Worlds LP performance, they could have squeezed out a win anyway even if it ended up being like a 5-4 split (which it ended up being between Slutskaya and Hughes with a lesser performance than Slute's Worlds one). The judges just liked those two. I mean Kwan received a majority of second place votes with a skate that included no 3/3 (first triple double footed) and a fall. If you look at the marks, Kwan still received the highest presentation marks overall http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG004.HTM
Except the irony is that MK didn't need the 3-3 to stay ahead of Sarah. She just needed to stay on her feet. Ironically, four years prior, everyone thought MK just needed to stay on her feet, but it turned out she really kind of needed the 3-3.
Actually, I think that is further proof that Tara > Sarah. Sarah at her best never beat MK at her best or near-best, but Tara actually did beat MK at her near-best (if only once).
Being a non-skater and knowing much less than most of you about technique and not having any pet/disliked choreographers, I chose Sarah. Neither are my favorites at all, but given a choice, and again knowing little about skating technique, I'll still go with Sarah. Tara just annoyed the hell of out me. Maybe it was all the uber-perk, the immature presentation....Maybe it's just my taste. Nothing personal. And this does seems weird, but since we seem to be picking them both apart - her head was way too big for her body, and she was just aesthetically not pleasing to look at, for me. Cute as a lil' button and all, but....zzzzzzzzz. I was also a Kwan fan....
What is bolded.
It doesn't work like that. A skater is eligible for induction after 6 years of official retirement from the competitive ranks. Those are just the rules.
Tara needed a 3/3 to have a shot at beating Michelle.
Sarah needed two 3/3's, a two footed landing plus a fall from Michelle, and finally a choreography hijacking maneuver to beat her.
Irina lost the gold by .1, a tiebreaker on the presentation mark. The Finland judge gave Sarah 5.7 tech, 5.8 pres and Irina 5.8 tech, 5.7 pres. Had that judge just given a 5.8 for presentation to Irina, which would have been easy to do, she would have won. Since her 2002 Worlds performance was much better, even with still only 6 triples and no triple-triple, with a clean 2nd triple lutz and triple flip neither of which she had at the Games, there is no doubt she would have won with that performance, even without a 3-3 or 7th triple. Irina still had slightly higher technical marks than Sarah even with her much easier jump content and mistakes, which shows the judges recognize the inferiority of Sarah's jump technique.
While there is less certain evidence by the scores, IMO Michelle also would have beaten Sarah with her 2002 Worlds or 2002 Nationals performance, even with only 6 triples and no 3-3. Plus in her case she didnt even have to do this to beat Sarah. She only had to beat Irina's LP, which with a very clean 6 triple performance would have been easy to do over Irina's very slow not clean 6 triple performance.
Tara also would have become a better skater had she continued past 98 IMO. Her pro performances showed her untapped artistic potential which would have been much greater than where she was in 97-98. Sarah IMO was already as good as she was ever going to get in 2001-2002, which is part of the reason she retired I believe.
What I liked about Tara was that she allowed herself to be her natural age, and picked music that suited her. She was cute, effervescent, and her presentation had really improved by the 1998 Olympics. By contrast, Sarah seemed to force herself to be the adult she was not. She was a 16 year old and needed something that suited her. IMO presentation marks should be more than just a big smile. Of course that would apply to both Sarah and Tara, but Tara had real 3-3 combinations, which makes me vote for her (plus the other things I already mentioned).
I agree. Sarah's skating was probably more "mature" in a sense, but it was totally forced and amateurish in its delivery. I event felt that way somewhat about Kwan's Salome in the 95-96 season and thought her artistic scores that season were too generous, but in 96-97 was when she fully bought into her newfound look and it wasnt a facade but completely natural. Tara's skating was truly genuine and reflective of who she was as a person and skater, and the pure joy and honesty to it could be felt.
ITA about Michelle's Salome. In an effort to make her look like a 'lady' at age 15, her coach and choreographer forced her to be what she was not. I did not agree with her artistic/presentation marks at all, IMO Chen Lu should have been a winner, based on her mature artistry.
I still think it was a hugely important stage for Kwan to go to, and still a big improvement from last season. IMO her 95-96 work was the bridge between where was before and what she would be from fall 96 onwards. Basically it was her transition year from ordinary artist to exceptional artist, and in that season itself she was in between those two. Still overrewarded on the 2nd mark throughout that season though, but alot of it was her super consistency and strong reputation she built, and the judges compensating for the wuzrobbed cries from the 95 Worlds.