How would you have ranked the Ladies '94 Olympics SP in Lillehamer

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by olympic, Jun 13, 2010.

  1. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    1. Kerrigan
    2. Baiul
    3. Bonaly
    4. Harding
    5. Sato
    6. Chen
    7. Chouinard
    8. Sweczenko
    9. Witt
    10. Czako

    The judges were high on Bonaly that season, and going into Lillehamer as the European champ certainly would have helped her maintain her top-3 SP standing if everyone else skated cleanly. Harding/Chen/Sato are probably interchangeable, but a clean Tonya may have had the edge due to her huge 3Lz combo and 2A. Her spins were also miles better than Chen, too.
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the judges probably would have kept Bonaly in contention for the gold medal over Sato or Chen who I dont think they viewed capable of winning the gold medal anyway. Bonaly had beaten Baiul at Europeans so they probably viewed her as a threat to the gold medal and would want to keep her in the top 3 to have a shot at it. I still think they had no desire to keep Harding anywhere in medal contention if they could avoid it but who knows for sure.
     
  3. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting that the judges were going to give Bonaly a shot, as she was Euro Champ. However, realistically, they were actually not going to permit her to stand on the top spot of the podium. That was evident by '93 Worlds. Come to think of it, I doubt TPTB were going to allow anyone besides Kerrigan or Baiul to be Olympic champ. Bonaly for the aforementioned reasons, Lulu had no politik behind her, Harding for the black cloud of controversy that hung over her, Sato just did not have a big resume up to that point and had only recently acquired the lutz.
     
  4. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    No, I love it ! Especially the first part. :swoon:
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I think you are right. TPTB had already decided Kerrigan and Baiul were the only 2 possible winners. And IMO that is ridiculous as they were not Ito and Yamaguchi. They were not that much better than Chen, Sato, Harding, Bonaly, even Chouinard that they should have been the only 2 given a shot of winning the thing going in. As it turned out with the skates that were delivered they probably deserved the top 2 medals, actually maybe Chen deserved 1st or 2nd in the LP and a silver over Baiul though
     
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. If we are going by the way they skated, perhaps it should've been a contest btw. Kerrigan and Chen. It has been rehashed many times that Baiul was seriously gifted in Lillehamer

    ETA - I forgot about Karen Preston who had been top 10 in Prague with a clean performance IIRC. She may have been a factor in the penultimate group if healthy.
     
  7. sk8boy

    sk8boy New Member

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    you know... i dont think it is all mary scotvold's fault in regards to nancy's music choices. nancy has said many times that she hates classical music. i remember her being mortified when she skated at Improv Ice... she drew *Nessun Dorma* and really it was a MASTERPIECE. Mary never gave Paul or Jenny Kirk muzack. Maybe we can lynch Mark Militano? Imagine Nancy skating to a Moonlight Sonata... I think it would have been for the ages.

    as for her 94 SP to desperate love... i remember being on a mission to find that music way before youtube and the web. i loved it... especially where her lutz combo was. the program also build.
     
  8. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

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    Oh yes, Karen Preston, the "Grace Kelly of the ice". Gag me. No she wasn't clean in Prague, she totally ate it on her 3lutz. It was funny because I remember her being interviewed afterwards saying she didn't 'miss' the lutz, it was just that the blue hockey lines were different than in Canada so she didn't have any more room to land. If I'd have been Paul Martini I'd have said "So you DID miss the 3lutz then? What nonsense are you saying, Miss Grace Kelly on Ice?" Uggh. She also had the lowest wonkiest landings. She would never be a factor in any event in any era. I might have to youtube it to see that bizarre interview.
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Karen's biggest asset was her consistency. She is a skater who probably wouldnt even finish in the top 10 in events where everyone skated cleanly, but because she was one of the most consistent skaters of her time she always did finish somewhere in the top 10. At the 92 Olympics she was the only women in the whole field I think who did 2 clean programs yet still finished 12th in the short and 8th overall. At the 93 Worlds she skated a clean short, then in the long I think had 6 clean triples but falling on the lutz which would have given her 7. Although funny enough had she not been bumped off the 94 team for Humphries she probably would have had a shot at the bronze at the 94 Worlds if she skated her best.

    Her skating was very bottom heavy. Her jumps looked very heavy and laboured. Her style was to skate classical programs that were very predictable in packaging and devoid of any personality or flair at all. She was also slow.

    If Choiunard had Preston's consistency she probably could have won atleast a bronze at each of the 92 Worlds, 93 Worlds, 94 Olympics, and 94 Worlds though. Karen and Josee tended to finish virtually tied even when Josee bombed and Karen skated her usual solid self.
     
  10. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely LOVE this program from the 2000 Goodwill Games, and it's not something I would have ever imagined Nancy skating to, nor did I think I would even like it. It's probably my favorite program of hers.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLGPcZDkEnQ
     
  11. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

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    Yeah, Karen was solid in 1992, but those LOWWWWW landings... Josee had a spark to her skating, Karen was like watching Sjoukie Dykstra.
    I found that Karen Preston interview. It wasn't Paul Martini, but that old guy who always commentated on CTV. She's at 6:30 after Baiul's performance. And yeah, she states she didn't miss the lutz, it's just that she had no room to land. Funny how things stay with you even 17 years later. Made no sense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6A6k8gPoo
     
  12. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I was just thinking about that program. By far the best thing she's ever done.

    It's similar in style to her competitive stuff, but far more fluid and natural.
     
  13. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I just remembered someone else - Laetitia Hubert.

    She was at '91 Worlds, made the final group in Albertville, and finished 4th at '92 Worlds, but I don't remember seeing her in either Prague '93 or anywhere in '94. She would be around as a factor in the '95 - '98 quadrennial, though.

    Does anyone know what happened to her in the Lillehamer time-frame? She was another skater who could've been in the penultimate group.
     
  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Laetitia was at the Lillehammer Games, finishing 17th (20th in the SP, 15th in the LP).
    She had a bad injury in the 1992-1993 fall, and didn't compete at 1993 Euros, nor Worlds.
    She came back for the 1993-1994 season, finishing 3rd at French Nationals, 10th at Euros and didn't qualify for the SP at 1994 Worlds. ;)
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I remember she fell on a triple toe combo and ended up only 20th in the short behind Natalie Kreig who fell on a double axel, Rena Inoue who fell on a triple lutz combo, and Ludmila Ivanova who fell on a big waxel. So based on that if she were trying only the triple toe combo she was slated to finish behind the likes of Kreig, Inoue, and Ivanova if they all skated all skated clean shorts that year. Kreig because of her spins likely, and Inoue and Ivanova since they were doing triple lutz combos.

    I was surprised how low her scores were for that being her only mistake even trying a triple toe combo. She really had no rep at all around that time I guess. Pierre LeRay was considered the #2 French skater and Hubert had not even made it to the 93 Worlds where they had only 2 spots. How different her career might have been had she not been pushed off the podium at the 92 Worlds by those crazy ordinal flips.
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think I am going to extend my original list further. If everyone in the OP hypothetical had been there and skated cleanly how the judges would have placed it:

    1. Baiul
    2. Kerrigan
    3. Sato
    4. Bonaly
    5. Chen
    6. Chouinard
    7. Harding
    8. Markova
    9. Szewcenko
    10. Butyskaya
    11. Kiellmann
    12. Czako
    13. Pierre LeRay
    14. Kreig
    15. Rechnio
    16. Liashenko
    17. Kwan
    18. Kajas
    19. Kulovana
    20. Inoue
    21. Van Sayer
    22. Ivanova
    23. Hubert (if she is still trying only the triple toe combo)
    24. Humphries

    I actually think Hubert and the #2 Canadian skater would have barely made the cut in this scenario of all these skaters being there and skating cleanly. And if the Germans somehow had 3 women there including Witt one of them does miss it.
     
  17. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    My take:

    1) Baiul
    2) Chouinard
    3) Harding
    4) Sato
    5) Kerringan
    6) Lu Chen
    7) Bonaly
    8) Witt
     
  18. ks1227

    ks1227 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think "rep" was Hubert's problem in 94. In fact, she was named in some of the pre-Olympic U.S. press coverage as a possible dark horse for the top group if she skated clean, probably because of her "rep" from 92.

    A lot happened to Hubert between 92 and 94. She was out completely in 92-93 with a bad injury, and was having a slow comeback in 93-94. And we now know that she was also having some very serious "issues" with her coach, who in fact she left at the end of the season. In addition, her skating reputation was based mainly on her jumps and speed and sometimes her footwork. When she missed the jumps, she just looked fast and sloppy.

    But the idea that a clean Hubert with a triple-triple would have been placed behind Kreig and Inoue in 94 has me :lol:. She managed to place 6th at 95 Worlds after all. If everyone including Hubert had skated cleanly, Hubert would have been much higher in the ranking than you have her.

    Not that this matters much since there's no competition where everyone is clean. :shuffle:
     
  19. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    In Lillehammer, I would have judged her based on the warm-up at 1991 Worlds :watch:
     
  20. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

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    This is such a tough one. Even though the tech mark is the tie breaker in the short, I give a lot of credit to the 'program'. All of the skaters have great strengths and a few limitations, but I'll identify some tie breakers that cause me to move some skaters ahead of others:

    1. Baiul. She skates with speed, has the nasty, Cohen-like vulnerability on here landings, an ugly layback/sideways spin and her f/w is all 3 turns in one direction. But, this is the only program of the field that says "champion". Such a grand step above the field that you just have to forget everything you know about skating and give it to her.

    2. Kerrigan. Her LP is extremely bleh and not worthy of an Olympic medal but her SP was really tight and original (f/w, closing spin, transitional moves). No spectacular elements but profoundly textbook.

    3. Chouinard. The program and the costume is captivating and cheerful. Josee stepped way up in maturity in 1994 with this SP and came 3rd in Japan because she botched the flying spin and she was not going to dethrone Yuka on her home turf. The only other 6.0 program in the field. Josee is a complete skater who truly performs her programs while showing versatility here. Only weakness is flexibility in her spiral.

    4. Chen. Like Chouinard, a major step up in maturity with this program. Highly sophisticated, but ruined by a bad hair style (that is not unlike my grandmothers); she could have dramatically improved her look even at 17. She just didn't look the part despite doing all the right things. Few skaters can match her precise and lyrical body lines, except Baiul. Spins didn't suck that badly here but the combo was a bit brief.

    5. Sato. Basic skating skills keep her in the final group. Speed, footwork and spins are hard to ignore. Personally I loved the program but if I was judging it, I'd be critical of its lack of originality and sophistication. A bit junior to me. Not a lot of choreography. Lots of smiling and arm pumping. Just because the music makes you smile, doesn't mean the program is good. Oh, and it's a total knock off of Robin Cousins' Olympic short in 1980, right down to the closing pose

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsCa9xlpMOE

    6. Harding. This was a good effort for her. The program wasn't bad and her elements are strong. Even though it was a recycled dress it all worked. Still, weak footwork, spiral and so-so choreography keep her lower while her strength in her other elements get her into the final group.

    7. Bonaly. Hard call here. Love the originality of the program, music, costume. Distracted by her skating on top of the ice, her floppy free foot on landings and very week footwork section. I can argue that she didn't turn the required five times on her combo spin on the other foot. Not one spiral was held. Her man hands with open fingers sometimes look prosthetic. Not one pleasing body line shown here. The whole ending of the program was a disaster and just left me feeling she's not ready for prime time. (Other than that I liked it! :D)

    8. Witt. Kerrigan + facial expression - senior ladies combination.

    This is how I would put it. I think judges would go: Baiul, Kerrigan, Sato, Bonaly, Harding, Chen, with Chouinard left out of the final group. All 7 of these ladies deserve placement in the final group, so I would have dreaded judging the competition if they all did in fact skate clean.
     
  21. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I have tremendous respect for Hubert, who nearly medalled at Worlds twice (92 and 98) and actually delivered her best Olympics skate at her 4th and last Olympics in 2002, landing 3lutz3toe!
     
  22. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I could have done without seeing Hubert at all those events if it meant two perfect programs from Midori at 1991 Worlds.
     
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont assume she was planning a triple toe-triple toe unless you know something I dont. The commentators were saying at the time she was practicing only the triple loop-double toe or the triple toe-double toe. You mention how out of shape she was, which is true, and I highly doubt she could even do a triple-triple of any kind at that moment. And I think the best evidence available is the actual scores that were given for how they did skate. Based on those Hubert with a fall on her triple toe combo being her only mistake was placed below Krieg with a fall on her double axel, Inoue with a fall on her triple lutz combo, and Ivanova with a fall on her double waxel. So based on that if they all skated cleanly with those combinations Hubert would have been placed last of even those 4, Kreig because of her spins, and Inoue and Ivanova since they were doing a way harder combination jump. Of course if she were actually doing a triple-triple she would place higher than that, or even a triple loop combo, but it seems quite clear she was only planning to do a triple toe-double toe combo, and considering she could barely rotate solo triples (as her LP show) I cant imagine for a moment she was ever going for a triple-triple. As for her rep, like I said she was really only the #3 French women behind even LeRay at the time of the 94 Olympics, and also the fact she was placed below the skaters I mentioned she was with them all having the same mistake basically, well you get the picture. Plus she was just weak at the time, the quality of her skating wasnt as good as later or earlier years even if she had skated well, and that also explains her really low scores for just one mistake. And whichever U.S article that picked her as a possability for the final flight was utterly clueless as she had done nothing and been pretty much invisible since the 92 Worlds.

    Her placing at the 95 Worlds doesnt mean much either. Alot of people retired, and alot of things can change as far as perception in a year. Hubert was also in far better shape, was skating faster and jumping higher again, and had some decent events that year and was established again as atleast a noteworthy skater again. I dont know where Bobek would have placed in 94 with this hypothetical larger than real Olympic field all skating cleanly but it probably would have been quite low, but at the 95 Worlds she was unbeatable if skating cleanly. The year after the Olympics is a good time for skaters whose careers and reputations are on the down to rebuild themselves and she did that the next season extremely well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2010