How would you have ranked the Ladies '94 Olympics SP in Lillehamer

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by olympic, Jun 13, 2010.

  1. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,144
    620
    113
    ...if all ladies had been clean? Kerrigan, Baiul [no 2 footing], Bonaly, Lu [no crashing into wall], Sato [no pop], Harding [completed combo, no 2 ft. - remember her '93 SA performance!], Chouinard [no mistakes. I think she fell at Lillehamer?]

    -AND-

    1. Butyrskaya had performed competently at '93 Worlds Prague, and thus qualified Russia 2 spots at Lillehamer [I think she probably could've been top 10 clean at Prague]- Markova and Butyrskaya were 3d and 4th at '94 Euros. Would they have made any waves here?

    2. If the US had 3 spots and Kwan went as a 13 yr. old. Where would she have landed?

    3. If Kiehlmann had been there instead of Witt, where could she have cleanly landed?

    -------------

    1. Baiul - 'The Swan' was a thing of beauty. She would've led. Judges loved her
    2. Kerrigan - maybe others were stronger, but as the #1 US lady and leader after the SP in Prague, she would've placed highly clean.
    3. Harding - I think she had the best tech here after seeing that '93 SA performance, but probably would've been held down somewhat due to her 'issues' of the day.
    4. Sato - Strongest basics and finally had the 3z.
    5.Chouinard - She had a great package of tech and artistry [when she was clean]. She placed really well at '93 Worlds in the SP
    6. Lulu - was blossoming, but her spins and spirals were weaker than the aforementioned ladies
    7. Bonaly - she was Euro Champ, but her basics were subpar to the aforementioned ladies.
    8. Markova - She had strong jumps IIRC and was Euro bronze medalist
    9. Butryrskaya or Kiehlmann - I'm not sure how 'mature' Butyrskaya's presentation was in the '93 or '94 season, but if it was nice she could've been ahead of Kiehlmann, but Kiehlmann when clean she would've maybe been favored by the judges due to a bigger resume....
    11. Szewczenko - was the only top lady without a 3z or flip in the SP, would hold her back
    12. Kulovana, Czako, Kajas? Would 13 yr. old Kwan been capable of getting into the penultimate group???
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    How the judges would have placed it:

    1. Bauil
    2. Kerrigan
    3. Sato
    4. Bonaly
    5. Chen
    6. Chouinard
    7. Harding
    8. Markova
    9. Szewcenko
    10. Butyskaya
    11. Kiellmann
    12. Czako
    13. Rechnio
    14. Kwan
    15. Kajas
    16. Kulovana
     
  3. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    9,974
    753
    113
    I'm not fond of Kerrigan's SPl. She skated it clean and that was the important thing, but it showed off what was wrong with her skating: the stiff style and forgettable choreography and music.


    I agree that Baiu's swan was a thing of beauty. I would've placed a clean Baiu over Kerrigan.
     
  4. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    12,553
    1,335
    113
    Hate to say this :
    1-Oksana Baiul !
    2-Nancy Kerrigan
    3-Surya Bonaly
    4-Lu Chen
    5-Yuka Sato
    6-Tonya Harding
     
  5. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    6,792
    1,101
    113
    Totally clean?

    1. Baiul
    2. Harding
    3. Sato
    4. Kerrigan
    5. Chen
    6. Chouinard
    7. Butyrskaya
    8. Markova
    9. Bonaly
    10. Szewcenko
    11. Czacko
    12. Kwan

    If Witt was there and clean I would have had her 10 or 11.
     
  6. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    774
    70
    28
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    My order was based on how the judges would have ranked them. Harding was closer to a clean program than either Sato or Chouinard who were both placed above her. Harding wasnt a big judges favorite by that point in her career even before the attack. With the negativity surrounding her in Lillehammer they would have placed every big name who skated cleanly above her even if she duplicated her Skate America performance. The further they could get her away from medal contention the bigger relief would have been their mentality at that point.

    Kerrigan and Baiul were clearly the 2 judges favorites so I cant see anyway they wouldnt have been the top 2. Baiul got two 1st place ordinals even with a badly two footed combo, and controversially to many passed Kerrigan for the gold medal in the LP with lesser content and more mistakes, so I see her getting the nod if both skate cleanly in the SP. Plus her SP was brilliant and better than Kerrigan's had she skated it cleanly anyway.

    I have no idea how they would place Sato, Bonaly, and Chen vs each other than I am pretty sure they would have followed in places 3-5 in some order, set up to battle for bronze or to move up if Baiul or Kerrigan messed up bigtime. Sato's marks were pretty good for her huge error though. Chen wasnt a big judges favorite at that point.

    I see Chouinard ending up behind that group since she skated pretty well in the SP at Worlds and still wasnt that close to Sato or Bonaly.

    I dont see anyway Kiellmann ends up higher than Szewcenko if both skate cleanly. Kiellmann had a harder jump combo, but at Worlds and the whole season really it was pretty clear who was sign higher in the international and National pecking order by that point. Granted Kiellmann might have eked out the bronze over Tanja at Worlds without her 2 falls at the end but it would have then taken 6 or 7 clean triples, all the triples, and a triple-triple combo to do so.

    It is really hard to think of everyone. I didnt even consider Hubert, Ivanova, Inoue, Kreig, Pierre Leray, Liashenko, Humphries, Von Sayer on my list if they skated cleanly. Amazing to think if there were 3 Americans in the event that someone from that group might have skated cleanly and missed the cut in this scenario. It may not have been a stellar field as far as potential Olympic Champions go, but it was certainly a very deep field.
     
  8. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

    715
    18
    0
    1. Baiul
    2. Kerrigan
    3. Bonaly
    4. Sato
    5. Chen
    6. Chouinard
    7. Harding
    8. Butyrskaya
    9. Szewcenko
    10. Markova
    I know! Mary Scotvold's choreography for Nancy was what made her such a :blah: skater
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Scotvold must have choreographed some good programs though. I am pretty sure she was Paul Wylie's choroegrapher as well. Also Nancy's 92 and even 93 LPs were beautiful. If she had skated those as well as her 94 cheesetastic program she would have won easily IMO.
     
  10. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,144
    620
    113
    Didn't Chouinard place really well in the SP at '93 Worlds? That is why I figured her to be final group material in Lillehamer [if clean]. Although, Sato would've passed her since Sato acquired the 3z and improved overall.

    I'm surprised people think Bonaly would've done so well, considering many skaters had better basics than her and if they'd gone clean....
     
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Bonaly would have been put in medal contention for sure just based on her name and status in the sport at the time. Remember she was the reigning World silver medalist and the reigning 2 time European Champion. She had beaten Baiul to win Europeans a month before the Games, and had been 2nd to only Baiul at Worlds in Prague. No way she isnt atleast put up in the top 4 or 5 and given a shot at a medal.

    At the 93 Worlds Kerrigan, Baiul, Bonaly, Choiunard, and Chen all skated cleanly with a triple lutz combo in the SP and the order was:

    1. Kerrigan- 3 judges had her below Baiul.
    2. Baiul- making her Worlds debut.
    3. Bonaly- 2 judges had her over Kerrigan, 1 judge had her over both Kerrigan and Baiul into 1st place.
    4. Chouinard- 2 judges had her over Kerrigan, 0 over Baiul, only 1 had her over Bonaly.
    5. Chen
    6. Sato- clean with only a triple loop combo
    7. Preston- clean with a triple flip combo
    8. Szewcenko- clean with a triple loop combo
     
  12. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

    298
    32
    0
    Well, yeah, Yuka Sato clean should beat Bonaly any day. But I think that judges up to 1994/95 gave Bonaly a free pass on her lack of skating skills. Had everyone been clean, and had Harding showed up in shape and landing the axel in practices, I think Harding would have been around 4th if she skated like SA93. I think it would have gone Baiul, Kerrigan, Bonaly, Harding, Sato and Chen. Chouinard had a great SP, but she always had that trainwreck factor to her skating, you just waited for the falls to start happening.
     
  13. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

    1,125
    220
    0
    This is just not true, she had lots of skills that Baiul never had (like the ability to do all four one foot turns, did Baiul ever do anything besides a three turn?)

    No, the basic stroking wasn't pretty but her biggest fault was not fitting in any of the tiny character slots allowed for elite ladies skaters.
     
  14. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    11,574
    1,411
    113
    :lol:

    I actually like Bonaly's program from 1994, but IIRC her steps were just as simplistic in that short program and she started doing actual steps about 1/3 of the way down the length of the rink.

    My take:

    Baiul 5.7/6.0
    Sato 5.7/5.9
    Harding 5.8/5.7
    Chen 5.7/5.7
    Chouinard 5.6/5.6
    Kerrigan 5.6/5.5

    Czako 5.6/5.4
    Witt 5.2/5.7
    Butyrskaya 5.4/5.4
    Kwan 5.4/5.3
    Bonaly 5.4/5.1
    Szewcenko

    Baiul's program and skating was gorgeous. And by clean I am assuming no 2footing, some steps into the 2flip, a bigger step sequence, and a combination spin with a sit position (I don't think that was required but it would have been nice to see variety).

    Sato's skating was the most fluid of all and should be rewarded. She was also musical and elegant.

    Harding was the most powerful and probably deserved the most technical merit and very good reward for strong skating skills. (assuming no whack drama)

    Chen's program was beautiful and she skated it beautifully. Too bad her spins were weak.

    A clean Chouinard would have been powerful yet beautiful. Might even put her above Chen if the possibly of her skating cleanish in the lp wasn't so slim.

    Kerrigan's skating ticked the boxes but that's it.

    Czako was somewhat wild back then but she was powerful and really attacked everything.

    Witt's skate was beautiful. But her combo jump was too easy.

    If Butyrskaya had skated and had skated cleanly, she would probably be held down somewhat despite her solid technique because her program wasn't so hot and her skating didn't quite grab people.

    I had Kwan above Bonaly because I think by that time Kwan was probably already skating more solidly than Bonaly was. Even if Bonaly had done the steps and spins properly the musicality and intricacy of Song of India would have made the difference. (Of course I know this would never happen :rofl:)

    IIRC Szewcenko's combo was a 3loop2toe and she almost always landed her jumps with her upper body pitched forward (however slightly).
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Since this thread is how you would have ranked them I might as well post how I would have ranked it now instead of how I think the judges would have:

    1. Sato- Since all her elements were very strong. Jumps not the best but solid if she did them. Probably best spins of the top ladies, definitely best footwork, strong spiral sequence for 94 standards. Delightful program.

    2. Baiul- As overrated as a skater as I think she was this particular program was a masterpiece artistically when skated well, and the short program requirements forced her to do all the technical elements, many which were glaringly omited from her free programs.

    3. Harding- Since the jumps were the best if she landed them, the other elements were strong especialy the spins, and the program was quite strong too.

    4. Chen- I hate to put her this low since I think her short program is just beautiful but I had to put one of the 4 out of my top 3. Her jumps were very strong but not that explosive in 94 and her combination spin especialy wasnt very strong. I still think she deserved to win the LP though.

    5. Kerrigan- solid but nothing that special. She deserved to win the SP of course since none of these others skated cleanly.

    6. Chouinard- she is a good skater but she really was never as good a skater as she was hyped to be in Canada. Even if she has stellar consistency she would have been only a bronze medal skater at best.

    7. Bonaly- I actually liked her SP, it was good for her style, but there is really nothing that impressive about her skating outside of her strong jumps.
     
  16. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,144
    620
    113
    ^ Thanks. For some reason I thought Josee was 3d after the SP in Prague '93 and Bonaly below her
     
  17. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

    3,883
    1,100
    113
    Josee was third in the SP at '94 Worlds.
     
  18. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,144
    620
    113
    I would have these 2 reversed, just because Chen of '94 was weaker on all non-jump elements than Kerrigan, and while she was blossoming on the 2d mark, she was not at her peak there until the next couple of seasons.
     
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    12,553
    1,335
    113
    I agree. Plus, Kerrigan had one of the best Triple Lutz combo ever, and one of the best 2Axel. Her spins were good, her skills were very good, her spiral was beautiful. Definitely better than Lu Chen. ;)
     
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Valid points. I just liked Chen's actual "program" much better than Kerrigan's. Kerrigan's elements wise was definitely the stronger in the short though.
     
  21. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

    298
    32
    0
    Wasn't Lu Chen planning on a 3lutz-3toe for both SP and LP? She was landing them in practices from what I remember in reports back then.

    Nancy had a great 3lutz, really the only reason she ever did anything in the sport. She never seemed to have mastered the other jumps, except the 3toe of course. I never really felt her spins were all that great either. She always seemed to miss her camel spin, her layback had no layback in it, and she always seemed to do weird positions that only slowed her down and didn't add to the program.
     
  22. Lainerb

    Lainerb New Member

    2,737
    237
    0
    I know Chen was practicing 3lutz+3toe back in those days, but didn't the ISU only start allowing triple+triple in the short program for ladies during the 1996-1997 season?
     
  23. falling_dance

    falling_dance Happy for Kozuka, Sad for D. Murakami

    23,584
    4,481
    113
    That's right. That was remarked on by some English-language commentator (I forget the country and network) during Czako's 1997 Worlds SP.
     
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    If Chen did the triple lutz-triple toe she probably wins the short program even if everyone goes clean. Something like that would have been a big deal back then. I have never seen her do that combination in competition even once though.
     
  25. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

    298
    32
    0
    I swear I saw her land it that season. NHK? Germany? But yeah, it wasn't in the SP, but the LP. I keep forgetting the rules changes after all these years. 97 was the first year a 3/3 was allowed, and Czako nailed gorgeous ones in SP and LP.
    I always thought Czako, had she had proper training time, would have been a major powerhouse. Too bad no one would sponsor her to go to Arrowhead or somewhere. She had grace, yet raw power.
     
  26. Spinner

    Spinner Where's my book?

    3,729
    627
    113
    Am I the only one who LOVED this performance of Kerrigan's SP? It matched her style perfectly and her skating was so crisp and confident.
     
  27. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

    298
    32
    0
    I cannot get past the gross music, and the Jane Fonda aerobics moves. Nancy just wasn't capable of musicality and/or depth in her skating and choreography. It was clearly a Nancy problem as Paul Wylie skated many Mary masterpieces. Or he at least made them that way. So no, compared to the masterpiece of Baiul's Swan Lake, Nancy was at least 0.5 lower on the second mark. It was night and day.
     
  28. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    9,974
    753
    113
    I wonder how much of the Scotvold's choreographies for Paul was really Paul's own input? I couldn't get over how lackluster Nancy's programs usually were compared to Paul's. It wasn't just in the performance. Nancy's choregraphy was really nothing special and was awkward at times.
     
  29. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    6,590
    282
    83
    I always wondered why there were no Russian women at the 1994 Olympics and this answered that question! Ouch how terrible for Butryskaya.
     
  30. falling_dance

    falling_dance Happy for Kozuka, Sad for D. Murakami

    23,584
    4,481
    113
    Certainly not!