How would Vanessa Riley have scored Bonaly vs Sato at the 94 Worlds

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Sep 10, 2013.

  1. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Vanessa Riley loved Yuka Sato's skating. She pretty much always scored her way higher than anyone else. One example of this is at the 92 Olympics back when Sato had almost no technical abilities yet she had her 2nd in the long program ahead of Ito and Chen who both skated amazingly. She even gave Sato a higher technical mark than Ito who had a strong performance and a clean triple axel, and Chen who had a clean skate with 6 triples. Her marks were 5.7 tech, 5.7 pres for Sato, 5.6 tech, 5.5 pres for Ito, and 5.4 tech, 5.5 pres for Chen. Sato only had 3 triples and her hardest jump was a triple loop, and she singled her other one. Almost all the other judges had her either 7th or 8th in the free skate in Albertville. She probably deserved only 8th behind Karen Preston who did 6 triples.

    Vanessa Riley hated Bonaly's skating. The 92 Olympics she had her 10th in the short when she was 3rd. At the 92 Worlds she had her 17 in the short and 22nd in the long when she was 7th and 12th.

    Riley didnt even consider Bonaly a superior technical skater than Sato. In fact she consistently scored Bonaly higher in presentation than in technical scores. So Bonaly doing alot of hard jumps did not impress her, to her basic skating and edges were much of what made up technical merit, not mostly jumps like most judges see. That probably also explains why she would give Sato such high technical marks, higher than people who were way stronger jumpers than her.

    How would Riley have scored Bonaly against Sato at the 94 Worlds where Bonaly was so upset she lost to Sato by .1. I bet Riley would have had them about 1.4 marks total in points. Probably would have given Sato 5.9, 5.9 and Bonaly 5.2, 5.2 or something similar to that. Also what do you think her reaction was seeing Bonaly not accept her silver behind Sato given how she feels about both skaters,and that Bonaly didnt even skate well at that event. Do you think she almost had a heart attack.
     
  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    Since you already have an answer to this- as you explained in detail- I don't see the point of this separate thread. I think there is already a thread about Surya, and those who strongly disliked her have already voiced their opinions there.
     
  3. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    This isnt a Surya bashing thread. I didnt say I agreed with Riley's marks for her. I certainly dont agree with some of Riley's marks for Sato (92 Olympic scores were crazy for what she did there). I just think it is funny to imagine what Riley might think or do in this situation given that it is probably her all time favorite and all time least favorite skaters that were involved in this crazy close decision and controversy. It is just funny to think what she would do if she were a judge here, or what she thought watching at home (if she was).
     
  4. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Who is anyone to say how a particular judge would have judged a skater? I am sure you could find any number of competitions where Riley judged both skaters to see where she placed both of them.
     
  5. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Riley's scoring of Bonaly. As to Sato it is clear she liked her skating. Sato did have far superior skating skills to Bonaly.
     
  6. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    No way should Sato had any ordinals over Ito and Chen in the LP at the 92 Olympics though.
     
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  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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  8. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    Or ever :shuffle:
     
  9. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Riley possibly attached more importance to jump quality, jump technique, spins, footwork, speed and basics when marking the first mark.
     
  10. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

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    I feel that Riley actually marked skaters with a lot of what IJS has given importance to, as opposed to what usually was 'accepted' in 6.0. In the free skate at the 1992 Worlds, IIRC she marked Sato as 2nd best and Alice-Sue Claeys as 3rd, with Laetitia Hubert way out of it (maybe 10th or lower, even though she just barely missed the podium). It's hilarious she had Bonaly 22nd. She was miserable in that event, with plenty of major errors and under-rotations.

    Anyways, seeing how Kerrigan and a lot of the others skated that day, I don't think she was that far off the mark with Sato and Claeys (who had an outstanding performance).
     
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    When did Vanessa Riley stop coaching major events? I would have loved to see what her scores would have been for many skaters who competed after her tenure. Even now, I'd love to see her seemingly nutty marks. As Tony Wheeler points out, I do think Vanessa Riley's marks are, for the most part, pretty reasonable considering what we now value in skating. I remember that funny video about inappropriate costumes and how she kept reiterating that although she deducted for Alexander Fadeev's see-through pants, she still ranked him first in the long program. Even though the interview kept pressing her on her low score, Riley kept saying that what matters was the rankings, not the actual points. It seems like even at the end of 6.0, people still thought the actual quantitative sum matters (other than for bragging rights or symbolic rights like getting a 6.0).
     
  12. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    She was a referee at 2009 Skate America, which is the last event where I specifically remember hearing/seeing her name. I wonder if she's judged any IJS events where the scores weren't anonymous, because it would be interesting to see how she'd use the GOEs and component scores.
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpusa09/
     
  13. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    I had posted in a previous thread Vanessa Riley's ordinals for the original program at 1992 Olympics vs. the actual placements of the skaters. Very interesting.

    1. Yamaguchi (1)
    2. Kerrigan (2)
    3. Hubert (5)
    4. Sato (7)
    5. Rachkova (13)
    6. Torp-Lind (8)
    7. Ito (4)
    8. Bonaly (3)
    9.Chen (11)
    10. Chouinard (10)
    11. Harding (6)
    12. Conway (17)
    13. Neske (16)
    14. Kulovana (9)
    15. Dimitrova (18)
    16. Preston (12)
    17. Lepina (22)
    18. Kiellmann (15)
     
  14. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Based on what we know of Riley it is difficult but definitely possible to guess. Her judging philosophy and principles are an interesting topic for discussion. What we can glean is that she had a sense of what ladies skating should be that was boldly different from her contemporaries. She had a very British sense of rules. Once there was a rule in writing about "modest and dignified" costumes, she insisted on applying that rule.
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    These would have been Riley's final results of the 92 Olympics:

    Gold- Yamaguchi, 1st short and long
    Silver- Sato, 4th short and 2nd long
    Bronze- Kerrigan, 2nd short and 5th long
    4th- Ito, 7th short, and 3rd long
    5th- Chen, 9th short, and 4th long
    6th- Chouinard, 10th short, and 6th long
    7th- Harding 11th short, 7th long
    8th- Bonaly 8th short, 10th long
    9th- Neske 13th short, 8th long
    10th- Rachkova 5th short, 12th long
    11th- Preston 16th short, 9th long
    12th- Torp-Lind 6th short, 16th long
    13th- Kiellmann 18th short, 11th long
    14th- Dimitrova 15th short, 13th long
    15th- Conway 12th short, 15th long
    16th- Hubert 3rd short, 20th long
    17th- Kulovana 14th short, 17th long
    18th- Vorobieva- 21st short, 14th long
    19th- Lepina- 17th short, 18th long
    20th- Otterson- 19th short, 21st long
    21st- Szwed- 24th short, 19th long
    22nd- Vassilieva- 20th short, 22nd long
    23rd- Czako- 23rd short, 23rd long



    Bonaly's overall placing isnt in fact that harsh in this case. It is only 1 spot behind Harding who she finished 1 spot behind in the actual event. Sato would have won the silver and Ito no medal though.

    For the 5 skaters who came from 25th to 29th in the short program Riley did have them in exactly the same position as they finished so she wasnt totally out of whack with the others (the 24th place finisher in the short who WD before the LP she had 22nd in the SP).
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  16. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    You would be surprised at the kind of photographs captured during competition before this rule. They were rather revealing.
     
  17. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Sato 1 and Bonaly 23
     
  18. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I just watched the link to all the way to Lulu's marks in Albertville and it never ceases to amaze me how underscored she was during her career... Not just one 5.4 by two 5.4s for technical merit for that program? Were the judges serious? That was hands down the best long program technically in Albertville and deserved 5.8s and 5.9s. The fact that Kristi got 5.8s for a fall and a doubled sal really shows how much politics went on during this time.
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well I agree she was undermarked but realistically they could never have given her 5.8s and 5.9s with Yamaguchi, Harding, Ito, Bonaly, and Kerrigan all left to skate in the final flight, and all those apart from Kerrigan had even more technical difficulty planned than she had done. They had no idea how those would skate, and that the event would turn out as it did. Had she done a clean short and been in the final flight, and drawn middle or later on, she could have gotten much higher marks.

    Yamaguchi was way overmarked. The judges scores basically guaranteed her the gold medal even if Kerrigan and Ito both skated cleanly, despite that she hadnt skated that well. Side by side Chen could easily be given the same or a higher technical mark as Kristi.
     
  20. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I do admire Riley's fair ranking of Conway. Almost every judge in those days showed some national bias. It was very in character how she evaluated Joann Conway without favoritism.
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Like the French judge who gave Bonaly a higher required elements marks than Yamaguchi in the short program and was the only judge to place her 2nd in the short over Kerrigan, then in the free program gave Bonaly a 5.8 for presentation and placed her 3rd behind Yamaguchi and Ito for her messy mistake filled performance.
     
  22. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Riley would have placed Bonaly 3rd behind Sato and Szewcenko at those Worlds with a 5.4 for technical merit and a 5.5 for presentation. She would have given Sato a 5.9 for technical merit and a perfect 6.0 for presentation. During the outburst during the medal ceremony she would have gotten so mad she would have ran on the ice herself and shook Bonaly hard and screamed at her "you stupid delusional bloke, are you blind, you are half the skater Yuka is." Riley would have placed Josee Choinpard 2nd in the short and Bonaly 4th, but Josee's long was so bad that she would place Surya over her. Riley hated Kiellmann even more than Bonaly and she fell twice in her long program, so she would have still placed her behind Bonaly, and given her the bronze on her card, which would be the only time she would have Surya as a medalist on her card given how much she disliked her.

    Does anyone know why Riley disliked Surya's skating so much and loved Sato's so much. The ones who said Sato was placed 2nd by Riley at the 92 Olympics much be joking though. She could only do a couple triples back then and finished 9th at those Olympics.
     
  23. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Riley knew the high marks she gave to Sato at the 1992 Olymics would be thrown out with the low marks, and probably thought it was a moral victory to reward Sato, particularly since the skills that dictated the outcome at the 1992 Olympics were so different than the skills at that 1988 Olympics.
     
  24. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Were top and bottom marks thrown out back then? I thought they all counted.
     
  25. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    Riley once told me she got quite a bit of flack from various ISU officials about her judging of Bonaly.
     
  26. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I didn't think any marks were "thrown out" under 6.0, except for never used rule about cheating or something where the cheating judge's mark would be thrown out and the alternate or referee's marks were used. At least, that's what I remember reading during the whole SLC Pairs debacle. All nine judges' marks counted, hence 5-4 splits, etc.
     
  27. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    ::sigh:: nope, sorry.

    Under the ordinal system, the substitute judge's mark could only be used if someone became sick or unable to judge the rest of the event. There was never any rule about a judge cheating. In the SLC debacle, Pfenning, the referee, tried to manipulate a vaguely written rule concerning the referee having decision making control over judging discrepancies, in order to get the substitute judge's mark used in place of MRLG ; however, the rule had initially been written to deal with discrepancies that concerned the marking during the event. For example, if a judge hasn't left enough room and signals to the referee that he/she needs to change the base mark, or a judge has inadvertently tied two skaters the referee would then give or deny permission to adjust the marks. In this case, since that was neither the explicit rule concerning the referee , nor its initial meaning, nor was that the explicit role of the substitute judge, nor what he/she was initially supposed to do, his recommendation wasn't followed.
     
  28. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    Chen in 93 and 94 were basically the same level of skater.
     
  29. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    Maybe not in the LP but Sato was screwed in the short. She was 7th and Ito 4th. It probably should have been the other way around. Sato's short program was better than Ito's in everyway except the easier jump combination while Ito fell on hers.
     
  30. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    The "best of majority" 6.0 system generally never helped skaters when they received 1 or 2 unusually high ordinals, but it definitely hurt skaters when they received 1 or 2 unusually low ordinals (which meant the skaters would lose tiebreakers versus other competitors when there wasn't a clear majority).