How would Cohen or Suguri stand against the other champions if they won 2006 Worlds?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by shady82, Jul 12, 2013.

  1. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    I'm bringing back last year's elimination competition. If Cohen or Suguri won in 2006 Worlds instead of Meissner, how would they compare against other recent champions?

    I think this largely depends on how well they skate if they win. Sasha could probably skate a decent program (maybe two minor jump mistakes) and win the title. Fumie would've had to skate perfectly, perhaps. This is a large wild card factor, but anyway, here are my thoughts:

    If Fumie won the world title, I'd say she is around the level of Hughes, but below Ando, Kostner, and Butyrskaya. I would give Fumie the slight edge because of her longevity and ability to stay at the medal level for the long time. I don't imagine Sarah staying in medal contention even at top form, if she continued. The field in 2004 was too strong, then should have trouble with CoP. In addition, Fumie's best performances (2005 FCC) are better than Sarah's best performances, and IMO should be enough to win both the 2002 and 2006 Olympics. The judges may not agree, but I thought Pink Panther and Carmen were brilliant and skated with mastery at FCC.

    If Sasha won, I'd probably slate her in slightly after Chen, Arakawa, and Lipinski. As a skater, Sasha is as good as these three if not better, but she rarely put together two amazing programs. However, she has a strong medal count (a World title, Olympic medal, and two World silvers) and generally skates well (but makes one or two fatal mistakes, which is not the same as a meltdown). I'd have Sasha ahead of Kostner because Carolina was so inconsistent and her Worlds win was with very basic jump content; and Ando, because one of her World titles was won with fairly weak skating (2011) and she wasn't consistently competitive and without an Olympic medal. I would have Cohen and Butyrskaya at a roughly similar level.

    In conclusion:
    1-4: Kwan, Kim, Slutskaya, Asada
    5-7: Arakawa, Lipinski, Chen
    8-9: Cohen, Butyrskaya
    10: Ando
    11: Kostner
    12: Suguri
    13: Hughes
    14: Meissner
     
  2. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Cohen I would rate above Arakawa, Lipinski, or Chen with a World title. None of those are iconic skaters and Cohen with even one big title would be as many aspects of her skating are revered.

    Suguri? It would depend when she won it. If she won the 2006 event I would rate her last (since Meissner wouldnt have and wouldnt even be on the list). Had she won in 2003, 2004, or 2005 I would rate her equal to Hughes tied for last though.

    I cant believe you rate Butyrskaya as a better skater than Ando or Kostner. Equal to Cohen even with a World title by Cohen. Just no. Here is a better order:

    1. Kim

    2-4 (no particular order) Asada, Slutskaya, Kwan

    5-7 (no particular order) Cohen, Ando, Kostner

    8 Lipinski

    9-10 Arakawa, Chen

    11. Butyrskaya

    12-14 Hughes, Suguri, Meissner
     
  3. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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  4. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Wow... Just wow. But you forgot the part where Picasso can't draw faces and Madonna was a nobody. :p

    At any rate, Cohen was an amazing skater and threads like this just prove that she doesn't even need a world title to become an unforgettable skater people are still taking about years after she quit.
     
  5. falling_dance

    falling_dance D. Murakami's Newest Fan

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  6. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Lipinski isn't an iconic skater? Since when?
     
  7. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Fumie winning the 2002 Olympics? I doubt that. The judges didnt care about Hughes's UR 3-3s at the time, and the 3-3s would guarantee her beating even Fumie's best. That plus her rep and being on home ice. Maybe with her 4CC performances she could have won silver or atleast bronze at the 2002 Olympics but the judges hosed her in the SP even for a very good short that had better choreography than her 2005 short, and she didnt even make the final flight after the short. So even that would be hard.

    Fumie winning the 2006 Olympics. Even less likely than 2002. Shizuka was just seen as a strong skater by the judges with superior GOE, PCS, spin levels, and Fumie didnt do any triple-triples or great difficulty to overcome a clean Shizuka. She probably again could have won silver or bronze though with her 2005 4CC performances you referred to, and even more easily than 2002.

    I put Butyrskaya on a similar level to Arakawa, Lipinski, and Chen. I am biased though. Shizuka outside of 2 events did almost nothing in her career though. I think Butyrskaya's 1999 World title winning performances would beat Chen in any competition she ever did, probably even the 1996 Worlds. I am sure Butyrskaya's 2000 Worlds short program would crush any short program Chen did. Lipinski has the success and deserved it but she never fully developed as a skater or left a mark outside her youngest records. So I think Maria should be grouped with those other three.

    You underate Kostner and Ando. Kostner overall is a superior skater to any of Lipnski, Butyrskaya (even though she is my favorite), Chen, or Arakawa, even if she is probably a poorer competitor than all. Ando I dont like but she won 2 Worlds in the Kim and Asada era and I dont think any of those others could. I might put all 6 on the same level, or Kostner and Ando even just ahead of those 4, but still behind the Asada, Kwan, Slutskaya, Kim group. Kostner is very competitive with Mao in their careers though so how far behind can she be.

    Cohen I would probably put in the same group with Arakawa, Chen, Butyrskaya, Lipinski with a World title too. So about where you put her.

    Fumie the topic though. Had she and Cohen both won Worlds I guess she would have to go behind Sasha even if her basic skating (edges, speed, flow, stroking) is much better. She would easily be over Hughes and Meissner though. Hughes has a better career and was more a force, but Suguri is a better skater IMO, so with a World title would have to be over her. So 12th is right for her.
     
  8. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Well to each their own but I definitely don't see Ando or Lipinski on par with Arakawa, Chen or even Bute. Ando deserved her titles, but her skating has always been just about the jumps. Lipinski was good and had solid basics, but she didn't come close to power or speed Kostner or Chen achieve. If we are taalking about who is the best skaters or the best competitors or a combination of both? For sure I'd have Suguri near the bottom of this list but ahead of Hughes. Cohen would be on par with Bute but below Arakawa, Chen and Kostner. All are either better skaters and/or accomplished more even if we are saying Cohen hypothetically won the 06 worlds (of course with Kostner we have to see how her final Olympic season pans out before I can really rank her-if she doesn't medal I have her below Sasha).
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure what order I would put them in but IMHO Kostner is a MUCH better skater than Ando so I would never put them on the same level as several previous posters did, let alone Ando higher as the OP did. It seems there is alot of disagreements what order people besides the undisputed first 4 should be in. However we all seem to agree Cohen with a World title is somewhere in the middle of this pack, and Suguri near the bottom, but probably not quite last.

    I also dont think Ando deserved her 2011 World title. 2007 I agree she deserved.

    I actually think I agree with Lnt175's order roughly the best:

    1-4: Kim, Kwan, Asada, Slutskaya (probably in that order although Asada vs Slutskaya is debateable)
    5-7: Kostner (if she medals in Sochi), Arakawa, Chen (probably in that order, although all are interchangeable)
    8-9: Butyrskaya and Cohen (had Cohen won Worlds)
    10: Lipinski
    11-12: Suguri and Ando (roughly equal if Suguri won Worlds, despite Ando's 2nd World title)
    13: Hughes
    14: Meissner (love her but she is way below the others, including way below Hughes even though only 1 spot back)

    Had Meissner built on her World title and done more performances like that of course she could have been several spots higher. Unfortunate how her career went from there.
     
  10. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    I think Kostner is given too much credit here. As great as her skating is - probably comparable to that of Kwan, Asada, and Kim, and better than Slutskaya's - it's not just about how good someone's skating is. She almost never skates a good SP and LP back-to-back, and she's too erratic a competitor. Skaters' skating quality and competitiveness both need to be evaluated. When Kostner did win Worlds with a reasonably clean LP, she did so with basic jump content, and her Worlds win was the weakest win of any of these ladies (with the exception of maybe Kwan '98). Not to mention, she wasn't close to clean in any of the other Worlds she medaled in, maybe just 2011.

    Ando and Butyrskaya, while their skating is not at the level of Kostner's, are still very strong skaters and delivered far more solid performances when they won Worlds. Even Ando's "joke" win in 2011 was more convincing than Kostner's win in 2012. I recognize Carolina's great skating, but her record of delivery isn't good enough.
     
  11. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    You can't be serious. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Cohen and Suguri were consistently strong skaters in the post SLC, pre Turin quad that unfortunately never made it to the top not only because their competition was strong but also because of their own shortcomings. I don't think winning a post-Olympic Worlds where everyone else was absent would have made much difference to their prestige. Not in my eyes anyway.
     
  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you about Cohen and Suguri. My point of view wouldn't have changed about them with a World title.
    But Yuka Sato, for example, won a post Olympics World title, where none of the Olympic medalist was there. And she won prestige with this title :)
     
  14. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Only skating fans are weird enough to consider winning a world title as unimpressive. Sheesh. Being a WC is huge and the general public would most certainly consider it prestigious. Cohen was dogged with "never can come through on her promiss" labels and having finally won a WC would have been a big boost to her rep. Fumie winning a WC right after shiz's historic oly win and before miki and Mao's two titles would have been a big boost for her with the Japanese public as the country's seeming dominance was backed with popularity.
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    When Cohen finally won her national title in 2006, Kwan wasn't there. Do you think it's more or less prestigious than say, Lipinski's national title? Competition matters.

    Neither Slutskaya nor Asada won the Olympics at the same year they won Worlds. To me those wins were more like consolation prizes. Peaking at the wrong time. Still an amazing feat it itself, but it's not a sign of dominance. Same for Kwan's win in 1998 - but then of course she went on to win 3 more.

    What I am saying is Cohen and Suguri were established skaters. But after all the years of NOT winning, if either of them won 2006 Worlds, my reaction would be "finally, it's her turn" instead of "wow what a great skater". It's great that they could call themselves a world champ, but I guess I don't really count titles and medals when I look at whether someone is a great skater.
     
  16. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    If they both won a Worlds, I think Suguri would be higher than Cohen because Suguri was a multiple time National Champion.
     
  17. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Well there is a flip side. It cant just all be about how good a competitor you are, and absolutely nothing about your ability to figure skate which your bizarre list and Kostner's extremely low placement seems to be based upon. The rest of all so far have all put Kostner below Kwan, Slutskaya, Kim, and Asada despite that in your own words Kostner's skating minus her competitive nerve is as good as Kwan, Slutskaya, and Kim, and better than Slutskaya, so her lack of consistency and competitive nerve was already factored in. Yet you place her even below Ando who you seem to admit is only a slightly better competitor than Kostner, and who is a far weaker quality skater, indicating you only consider competitive strength and not skating ablity at all.

    Also how on earth was Ando's 2011 World win more convincing than Kostner's. Kostner won by a large margin, and nobody disputed her 2012 World title or even argued anyone else possibly winning. Ando barely won by a tiny point margin in both 2007 and 2011, and many argue she didnt even deserve her 2011 win despite it being an at her worst ever Yu Na Kim in 2nd place. 2011 was every bit as mediocre a field and quality event as 2012 as well. So that particular comment makes no sense. Please explain what makes Ando's 2011 World title more convincing.

    As for Kostner winning medals with mistakes, her mistakes aside her point totals for all her silver and bronze medals were all reasonably high point totals for each given point in time. She certainly wasnt as lucky as Ando winning Worlds in 2007 despite winning either program, and only gaining the points to beat Asada and Kim based on a few stupid technicalities even with their mistakes (all -3 for Asada on her triple-single jump combination in the short despite that it was executed fine apart from the popped 2nd jump, huge -GOE in addtion to the slight UR and 2F on her double axel-triple toe in the long; Kim having her very good triple salchow-double toe late not count for anything only because she happened to have her 2nd fall be on another triple lutz and it count as a sequence), and 2011 just takes the cake. Regardless of points Kostner's 2012 World title LP was a far higher level than Ando's 2011 one which also had only 5 triples, no triple flip just as Kostner had no lutz, and much poorer quality skating in every other way.
     
  18. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Cohen would have won in 2006 anyway. She finally skated an almost clean competition at Nationals, and a very good Cohen could not lose to Kwan under COP, sorry.

    As for Cohen being lucky to win a Nationals she was super unlucky to have to compete with Kwan and Hughes all those years. In most eras Cohen would win 4 or 5 Nationals, even with her mistakes.

    I agree on Suguri but in Cohen's case she was completely capable of winning the 2004 Worlds and 2006 Olympics even with a full field. The 2004 Worlds was hers to lose. I know some say Shizuka was too strong, but Cohen with a really poor skate only lost to Shizuka on a 6-3 split, and even Kwan with a doubled jump on a 5-4 split, so obviously the judges were going to give it to Cohen all the way had she gone clean. Maybe Shizuka's skate should have been unbeatable even had the rest skated perfectly but she didnt have the rep yet.

    2006 Olympics was a full field apart from Asada who was age ineligible by the rules and shouldnt matter because of that. Well and Kwan wasnt there but she was in no way a favorite for the Olympics that year, and would have had no chance to beat a good Slutskaya, Sasha, or Shizuka anyway. So Sasha's 2 main competitors who count (age ineligible Asada does not count) were there had she won. Sasha would have won easily had she done her program cleanly as planned. Now it is true maybe she would have lost even clean to a clean Slutskaya or Arakawa, especialy if either did a 3-3, but she won the SP over both with all 3 skating cleanly so nobody would regard it as a win by default had she done it.

    Now had she won only the 2006 Worlds you might be right. However had she won the 2004 Worlds or 2006 Olympics skating her best, you wouldnt be. Even if she won the 2006 Worlds had she done it with a great competition you couldnt really say she won because of Slutskaya and Arakawa not being there, as she has beaten both many times in the past, and might have done it again, and Asada being age ineligible shouldnt matter in the discussion.



    In short you cant compare Cohen to Suguri. Cohen was always one of the top 2 or 3 favorites for gold and capable of winning it for years. Suguri needed others to falter just to win a bronze, so if she had won the 2006 Worlds with so many people out it would be a diminished achievement. However for Cohen you cant really say that, and you cant even be sure the 2006 Worlds would be the one she would have won as she had other chances to win with everyone who mattered there.
     
  19. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    God, again?
     
  20. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    You would never know how she would have skated at Nationals against Kwan who was trying to break a US record. Anyway, even when she was starting to beat Kwan internationally in 2004, she still couldn't beat Kwan at Nationals. It's an event that Kwan owned. And it wouldn't even matter so much how Kwan skated as I am sure Cohen would have found a way to do herself in like 2003 - 2005 Nationals.

    How was 2 mistakes and 1 suspect 2-foot at 2006 Nationals "almost clean" but 1 mistake at 2004 Worlds "a really poor skate"?

    Fact is she didn't win 2004 Worlds or 2006 Olympics. Isn't this thread about the only hypothetical situation of Cohen or Suguri winning 2006 Worlds? And if Cohen won 2006 Worlds in the fashion she won 2006 Nationals (i.e. no pressure), it probably would just be a win by default anyway. I don't recall Cohen beating Slutskaya "many times" when all of them skated decently.

    Yes but the point is she never did. She almost always did enough to medal but never enough to win. The only 2 times she won something big was when someone was bothered (Slutskaya at 2002 GPF) or absent (Kwan at 2006 Nationals). It is possible that she could have won these two if Slutskaya and Kwan were fine, but her own records over the years did not seem to suggest the same.
     
  21. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Not to be confrontational, but I think the answer to "why are there so many of these threads?" is not God, but "the devil made me do it!" :lol:
     
  22. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Ando had a higher score total in 2007 and 2011 than Kostner did in 2012. Even if Kostner's win was more ahead of the rest of the field, Ando had to face Kim and Asada in 2007, and Kim in 2011 (sub-par Kim is still Kim). Kostner didn't face Ando, Kim, or top-form Asada when she won. I also think Kostner gets more credit score-wise then she deserves, but that's probably subjective and even without that factor, Kostner's win in 2012 just wasn't particularly solid. Ando's skating isn't that much weaker than Kostner. 2007 was a great competition, Scheherezade was an amazing vehicle for her and her Mendelssohn FP.

    I agree 2005 Fumie at FCC wouldn't win 2002 or 2006 Olys (based on what judges would do), but IMO her performances at 2005 deserved top spot if she skated like that in SLC or Torino.
     
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Ando`s LP score at the 2011 Worlds was atleast 10 points higher than she deserved, and in no way did she deserve the title there (even over far from her best Kim) so who cares how the scores compare when her score wasnt in anyway legit in the first place. A 130 LP is what her long program at Four Continents `might`have deserved (of course that also got a ridiculous score of 137). Her Grand Prix final long program was even better than her Worlds long program and got a 122 vs her weaker Worlds long program which got a 130, amazing. It doesnt take a genius to see that after Japanese Nationals the JSF put their full backing behind Ando that year and she received some outrageously high scores, even for her standards, the remainder of the year. Just comparing her early season scores, when she was still winning and the one to beat that season, to her later season performances for comparable or not much better performances, makes it plainly obvious, even factoring in some slight score inflation as a season goes on is typical.

    I agree with those who say Kostner`s win in 2012 is far more impressive than Andos in 2011 for two simple facts: 1. it wasnt controversial in anyway, while Ando`s in 2011 was. 2. her long program was far superior to Andos in 2011 regardless of any joke score Ando might have received. In fairness Andos SP in 2011 was a bit better than Kostners in 2012, but not enough to make up the difference in long program quality. Well the scoring gap differential as well, but I dont even see that as important as the other two points.

    Asada was at bad or worse at the 2011 Worlds as 2012, so why even mention her. Both the 2011 and 2012 Worlds were incredibly sucky competitions in the grand scheme of things, so arguing which was more competitive is a moot point. Kostner from the 2013 Worlds would have easily won both those events despite not winning in 2013 vs the real Yu Na Kim, and based on the scores Ando`s World title in 2007 the Kostner who didnt win in 2013 wins that one as well if one wants to play the scores game.

    Kostner getting more credit score wise you think. I would say the same thing about Miki Ando over the years, except to a MUCH greater degree than Kostner. An unknown skater from a small country would get 5s in PCS for most of the material she puts out. Other than jumps there is nothing remotedly special about anything she does, and then there is the tedious two footed skating, awful posture, and often empty choreographic wise programs.

    My thread of better career between Ando and Kostner is the only valid discussion to be had between them. Better skater is a no brainer, Kostner by a country mile.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  24. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    1. Kim

    huge gap


    2. Kwan
    3. Asada
    4. Cohen
    5. Kostner
    6. Slutskaya


    another huge gap


    7. Chen
    8. Butyrskaya
    9. Lipinski
    10. Arakawa
    11. Suguri
    12. Ando


    another big gap


    12. Hughes
    13. Meissner

    is how I would rank them if one of them had won a Worlds. Cohen with a World title would have to be right up there as she is such a special skater. Fumie still wouldnt be that special a skater, but a better one than Ando, Hughes, and Meissner had she won a Worlds.