How would Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze and Sale/Pelletier score under IJS?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by shady82, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. shady82

    shady82 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    473
    People always say that B/S would score far higher than S/P under IJS, but I'm curios what the IJS experts will say regarding the kinds of scores they would receive for clean or near-clean skates.

    Hypothetically speaking, let's say B/S and S/P skate IJS-adjusted programs with the upgraded elements under the 2006 version of the scoring system. How would Lady Caliph, Meditation of Thais, Jalousie, and Love Story score? Do you think specific scores are quantifiable. How would they fare against Totmianina/Marinin's performances in Torino? How about against a strong Shen/Zhao?
     
  2. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    419
    Sale & Pelletier would be way behind after the short in SLC and so have no chance of winning even with B&S making small mistakes in the long. Shen & Zhao would also be above Sale & Pelletier after the short but fall behind after the longs they did there.

    Totmianina & Marinin from Turin 2006 would easily crush anyone from 2002 under COP whether you like their skating or not. In fact I dont think there is anyone in Olympic competition history yet who would beat Totmianina & Marinin from Turin 2006 under COP, except maybe Miskutienok & Dmitriev from 1994. A perfect and strong Shen & Zhao would have been neck and neck with Totmianina & Marinin in Turin, probably coming down to a few points either way. However Shen & Zhao even fully healthy have never done performances at the Olympics either in 2002 or 2010 to come close to Totmianina & Marinin, so no reason to assume for sure they would have even fully healthy. They have in some other events, but not the Olympics.
     
  3. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    I agree with this. Still it is near impossible to make a FS comparrison. There is no way to compare 6.0 pairs free skates with IJS pairs free skates. The emphases are so different. It takes more imagining than I have time for to envision what Sale and Pelletier's IJS program would look like vs. Shen and Zhao's vs. Totmianina and Marinin's. My instinct says Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze would win under a system that accounts for all elements and overall qualities instead of one focused on measuring flaws and relative artistry.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  4. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    I'd agree.
     
  5. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,116
    ITA with this whole post.
     
  6. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Messages:
    128
    Berezhnaya and Sikarulidze were gorgeous but they had a number of troublesome elements, atleast by the time their serious rivalry with Sale & Pelletier was on. Throws were shaky and inconsistent although spectacular when done solidly. Side by side jumps had become a bit inconsistent too, although stronger than Jamie Sale by far. Their death spiral became very weak, and their lifts had declined alot and were also pretty weak by SLC. This would have made it hard for them to get a good TES in COP.
     
  7. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,623
    I far prefer B&S, but I'm not sure why they'd be so far ahead after the SP. Jaime & David would at least match them on GOE for technical elements. Whatever they might lose in the pair spin they would gain in the lift, too.

    Honestly, I don't think IJS, especially in pairs, does enough to separate pairs with skating skills, composition and synchronicity like B&S from everyone else. Pairs are only rewarded for those qualities if they happen to 1) be their country's #1 team and 2) come from a country with political clout. They also have to have decent TES, too.

    If COP were applied to these teams without regard for political factors or a corridor, S&P would have some brilliant scores on some aspects of their programs, but they should get a 1.0 for transitions in this SP. Re-watching Jalousie after years of COP programs is jarring. She does that little almost spiral after landing her throw jump, and they have an inside spread eagle into their combo spin. The near total lack of 1 foot skating in between elements from either Jaime or David is shocking.
     
  8. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,549
    Don't forget their horrible twist.
     
  9. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,859
    This would be a tough call. They would be equal on spins and sbs jumps. S&P would score higher on lifts and twists. B&S would win on the throws if they both did them clean because of ice coverage and flow. But they aren't always clean.

    The separator here is in PCS. The first mark given is SS and this mark sadly has a bearing on the rest. B&S skate with much more speed and deeper edges and ice coverage. They would pull low 9s here whereas S&P would be mid-8s. And so would go much of the rest of the PCS. I think they would be close enough in TES to pass S&P overall via PCS.
     
  10. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,568
    Are we imagining how the programs might be designed differently under IJS, who could gain higher TR and CH scores; who could gain higher levels and higher GOEs? Or are we looking at specific performances -- the actual programs they did skate on particular occasions with the actual element success and quality on those occasions?

    Unless we're looking at specific performances that have actually taken place -- which isn't fair because they weren't designed for IJS -- then we can only speculate how well each team would perform and no doubt it would vary from one competition to the next, even from short program to long program at the same event. E.g., B&S had spectacular side-by-side jumps and throw jump in the SP at SLC, not so special in the long program. At a different competition, they might be more "on" in the long program. Same for every other team. Death spirals might vary depending on which edge was required in the SP that year. And so forth.
     
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,939
    Exactly... certain things aren't variable, like the base value of jumps and throws (possible URs notwithstanding), but for the rest... just because B&S had more transitions doesn't actually mean they will get a better transition score, just like S&S don't always have a better transitions score than V&T. My answer to this thread is "however the judges decided to score them, based on the relevant factors of the time, such as how much they appreciated certain qualities of their skating, the politics of the time, the location and importance of the event..."

    The discussion about T&M is interesting. They just might have been able to pull it out with a higher TES score than the others... their programs weren't as good, basics not as good as B&S (though better than S&P and S&Z), but they didn't have any flaws that warranted marking them down in PCS either. If the Russian fed backed them over B&S (I'm talking 2006 era T&M over 2002 era B&S) due to their consistency, I guess they could've outscored them in PCS as well, although I'd really disagree with it.

    And I think M&D from 1994 might just be the strongest Olympics pairs LP too, ironic since they didn't win.
     
    Coco and (deleted member) like this.
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,354
    On a typical day Sale & Pelletier would be much lower on side by side jumps. She barely got through a program without popping atleast one jump, and she had tiny itty bitty jumps that werent well matched to his, and the unision was weak. SLC they might have ended up similar on jumps since Anton put his foot down on one jump in the long, and it was one of those Hayley Comet times Jamie Sale got through all 3 jumps in the competition cleanly, although with small jumps and terrible unision on the triple toes as always. In a more typical competition combining the two programs S&P would be atleast 5 points down on B&S on jumps and atleast 10 points down on a prime T&M or S&Z.
     
  13. shady82

    shady82 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    473
    Yes, I'm talking about B/S and S/P skating their 2002 programs, but with elements adjusted to CoP, so that their levels are similar to those T/M and S/Z 3-5 years later.

    Just my point-of-view, but I think B/S, S/Z, and T/M will receive similar GOEs if they execute their elements cleanly. S/P will be a bit behind, but if they adjusted their elements to CoP, which they are capable of doing, I don't think they will be very behind. In terms of PCS, I'm sure B/S will at least receive comparable marks to S/Z and higher than T/M. S/P may deserve lower PCS, but then again we have to consider politics.
     
  14. lao1234

    lao1234 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2002
    Messages:
    95
    In my mind, B/S's PCS scores would be significantly higher than S/Z and that T/M would be closer to B/S than to S/Z - but, the mileage, it varies...
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,354
    If we are talking about their best ever performances in the Olympics, Shen & Zhao are not even a factor, atleast not for gold. Shen & Zhao have never skated an Olympic competition to challenge Totamianina & Marinin from 2006 under either system. Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze would easily beat the Shen & Zhao of either 2002, 2006, or 2010 under either system as well IMO. I dont even know which of those would be considered S&Zs best Olympic competition, I guess 2010 where they lost the LP to Pang & Tong, the team who were slated to only finish 4th if everyone delivered. Sale & Pelletier from 2002 maybe Shen & Zhou of 2010 could beat under COP, obviously nowhere close under 6.0 either.
     
  16. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    B/S would crush everyone they competed against with their skating skills alone. Their effortless speed, flow and edge quality was just incredible.
     
  17. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,033
    This hypothetical is weird because we're considering B/S and S/P's non-COP 6.0 2002 routines but are selectively assuming certain things regarding what B/S and S/P would do to adapt to the 2006 version of COP for one's own biases. Also, why are we only considering Shen/Zhao's Olympic performances when we know they are capable of better (and have consistently done better than any of those performances due to 2002 being before they gelled with Turandot, 2006 coming off Zhao's archilles injury with like a month of on-ice preparation, and regarding 2010, it wasn't their best performance but they performed much better all season). I find this whole thing to be quite selective just so people can say T/M were just a superior Pair team. Another reason that I have a problem with this is that it is inherently advantageous to B/S, S/P, and T/M because they probably performed the best they ever had at their relative Olympics while S/Z didn't, so we're comparing the pairs teams' best against S/Z less-than-best. It'd be one thing if people were just framing it as how these pairs teams would be judged on their particular Olympic performances, but that is not how these posts sound.

    Anyway, I'm not surprised that people think B/S are much better. IMO, they are one of the best pairs ever, but I think COP was sort of formed the way it was in a post-hoc fashion as a way to to justify B/S getting gold in 2002 initially. It really rewards most of their strengths. I know the counter-argument to that is that B/S's skating is what SHOULD be rewarded in an ideal judging system. However, I think people don't give S/P enough credit on individual pairs skills that they perform excellently...I have my own theories on that, but it may be a bit controversial.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,354
    Well I was under the impression the thread was speculating based on their Olympic performances/competitions, and that is why I focused mainly on that. Believe me I am not a big T&M that would ever go out of my way to make them look better unneccessarily. I do admit to a bias against Sale & Pelletier who became one of my least favorites ever through a variety of reasons I would rather not get into, but even objectively speaking I dont think they are suited to COP at all, definitely great 6.0 skaters though. They did have some quality pair elements for sure, pretty much all their pair elements were excellent, but they would never get away with Jamie's jumping and their relatively simpler programs (both technically and choreographically in general) under COP.
     
  19. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,422
    Interesting discussion. One thing that I have not seen mentioned here are transitions (several posters mentioned higher PCS for B&S but not the transitions explicitly- except one poster, I think). If PCS are given fairly, the strong basic skating skills, speed, and most importantly transitions in B&S's choreography (don't forget they got mostly 5.9s for presentation, despite politics in SLC) would have blown everyone out of the water. Technically their sbs 3ts were far superior to S&P's in the entrance (from 3 turns and great unison). They would have obviously lost points on the sbs 2A's.

    B&S's spins were far superior in the way they held the positions and changed them while spinning. Their unison and lines were the best. So I don't agree that the two pairs were equal in their spins.

    I don't agree that S&P's pairs elements were great either. Their lifts had more difficulty (change of positions) but the positions were terrible (IJS is very lenient, however, when it comes to positions, lines and unison). Their throws were clean but small, and did not have the difficult entrance that B&S had on the throw 3R. However, their GOEs would have been slightly higher on the clean throws and on the 3 twist, which was never B&S's strong point. The differentiator, however, should have been the big difference in the PCS. S&P had virtually no transitions. It was all cross over cross over and a trick type skating, with long periods of doing practically nothing (other than looking into each other's eyes). They did mostly side by side skating, unlike B&S and other pairs (like M&D or G&G if we go back to 1994) that used more changes of directions, sometimes facing each other, and still maintaining the fluidity and speed.

    Discussing only 2002 Oly:

    I agree with the poster that said that B&S's SP would have given them insurmountable lead, as long as politics did not interfere. At that point S&Z were daring but not as skilled. As far as basic skills, transitions, lines and unison were considered, they were not close to B&S but they would have beaten S&P in the SP. They would have lost to S&P in the LP (fall on the throw 4S took them out, regardless of the judging system used).

    The pair that really mastered the IJS was T&M, whom I liked (unlike many posters here). They were not as pretty as B&S (or G&G or M&D) but they were crisp, consistent, and their programs were designed for the IJS. I don't think S&Z really mastered the IJS, even though they did eventually win the OGM in 2010. They grew up under the 6.0 system and by 2010 the Russian pairs well had run dry, which helped them tremendously. T&M made the transition from 6.0 to COP smoothly and they came out ahead of everyone in 2006. A healthy S&Z would have pushed them, however.
     
  20. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,033
  21. shady82

    shady82 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    473
    Very interesting points.

    VIETgrlTerifa, thanks a lot for pointing out S/Z's 2007 program. I think we're giving T/M a bit too much credit here, even though I actually do enjoy their skating to some extent. I thought S/Z's 2007 programs were ill-suited for them. If anything, Romanza and Meditation are better music for T/M and B/S. S/Z have a robust, powerful style better suited for Turandot and Soong Sisters, though Nutcracker was a wonderful program as well.

    I think S/Z are better long program skaters - with Turandot, Soong Sisters, and Nutcracker - which I think would come on top if delivered, because they are more compelling than T/M's programs. In contrast, T/M had better short programs - Snowstorm, Ave Maria, and Mountain King. IMO, Ave Maria was the best SP of the quad (though I thought T/M's R&J was just blah and not deserving of the high PCS they got).

    If anything, I find S/S to be the best CoP pair during this time, because of their innovative layouts, entries and exits, and ability to seamlessly weave CoP intricacies.
     
  22. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,730
    ^^^
    THIS!
     
  23. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,423
    Absolutely, I would give them 5 points higher than anyone else in PCS ! So, no problem with the minor 2Axel mistake !
     
  24. figuresk8302

    figuresk8302 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    12
    Ran their Technical Scores through. These scores would have them out of the medals in the Junior Pairs competition so we don't have to worry about who would have won the 2006 Olympics because with scores like these they wouldn't have been there haha
    russian short
    3T 4.1
    3LoTh 5.0
    2LzTw1 3.0
    CCoSp1 1.7
    5SLi1 4.5
    StSqB 1.5
    BiDs1 2.8
    PCoSp1 3.0
    Total Technical25.6

    Canada Short

    3LoTh 5.0
    3T 4.1
    2LzTW1 3.0
    PCoSp1 3.0
    CCoSp1 2.0
    StSqB 1.5
    5TLi2 5.0
    BiDsB 2.6
    Total Technical 26.2

    -1 fall

    Russian LP
    3T 4.1
    2A-2T+Seq 3.74
    3Tw1 5.0
    3STh 4.5
    FiDs Novalue
    5SLi1 4.5
    3LoTh 5.0
    4Li1 2.5
    CoSp1 1.7
    PCoSp1 3.0
    Invalid Element
    Invalid Element
    Total Technical 34

    Canadian LP
    3T 4.1
    5TLi1 4.5
    3Tw1 5.0
    3STh 4.5
    2A+2T+Seq 3.74
    3Li1 2.5
    FSSp2 2.3
    FiDs1 2.8
    3LoTh 5.0
    5SLi2 5.0
    Invlid element
    Total Technical 39.4