How would 2006 womens event in Turin have gone with everyone there and at best

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 21, 2010.

  1. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    It was a rhetorical question.

    :p

    I know she fell on the quad, and I also wonder where Miki would've placed if she performed two clean programs.
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Wow I didnt realize Miki even tried the quad in Turin. I guess she realized her only hope of a medal there was to do something like that. Was that the only quad she tried after fall of 2004?
  3. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think it was the only quad after 2004.

    :)
  4. Indra486

    Indra486 Well-Known Member

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    Whoops! Sorry! It's finals week. :lol:

    ETA: I'm pretty sure Miki's last quad attempt was at the 08 GPF and she landed it UR-ed.
  5. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    Don't worry!

    Oh, right! I forgot about that! Yes, her last quad was at the 2008 GPF!
  6. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I really don't get this scenario.
  7. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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  8. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Michelle being higher than even 4th or even 5th at Torino is a joke. She is in no way meant for COP with those low jumps and poor spins even in her prime.
  9. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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  10. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    Her jumps at 04 worlds SP was a bit better imo. At 06 worlds her 2A in the SP was magnificient. If this thread is only about skaters at their "best" but not necessarily clean then we might as well just rule her off the podium. For me, Sasha at her "best" in the LP was skating a clean, 7-triple performance without negative GOE (except for flutz). (yes i know that never happened) Still in that case, I think she would have finished second. Arakawa would have won, as she was the best skater at that olympics :respec:
  11. longingfornia

    longingfornia New Member

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    1 Sasha
    2 Irina
  12. key65man

    key65man New Member

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    The best total scores (single international competition) for the aforementioned skaters in the 05-06 season:

    1. Irina Slutskaya 198.06 COR in Russia (196.12 COC in China)
    2. Shizuka Arakawa 191.34 Olympics in Italy
    3. Kimmie Meissner 189.87 Worlds in Canada
    4. Mao Asada 189.62 GPF in Japan (182.42 TEB in France)
    5. Sasha Cohen 183.36 Olympics
    6. Fumie Suguri 181.27 Worlds
    7. Carolina Kostner 172.45 Euro in France
    8. Miki Ando 172.30 COR
    9. Joannie Rochette 167.27 Olympics

    Yuna Kim 177.54 "Junior" Worlds in Slovenia (3-2 in SP while 3F-3T in LP)
    Michelle Kwan N/A

    The second best score in parenthesis for those who are not comfortable with home turf stuff.
    Last edited: May 23, 2010
  13. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I have.
  14. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    The videos of Yu Na in 2005-06 look strikingly like Michelle Kwan 1994-95, which she could out jump everybody but still not medal.

    1995 WC Ladies FP Michelle Kwan
  15. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yuna was doing harder jumps than Michelle. I don't think Michelle ever did 3f-3t. Plus Yuna's Roxanne SP was very sophisticated and not juniorish. I'm not saying she would have medaled, I just think she would have been higher than 7th or 9th, maybe 4th or 5th if I had to guess.
    Also, to me, Yuna at that age resembles more Michelle during the 1995-1996 season, physically still looking a bit young but skating with a lot of maturity and expression
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RqDWcvo5b0
    Last edited: May 25, 2010
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I dont see anyway in 2006 Yu Na beats a hypothetical at their best and totally clean Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa, or Asada so already 5th is the absolute highest she could even hope for in this scenario. Whether she would even be placed over a clean Kwan that year is even debateable, alot would depend on how much Kwan had improved under COP in the year since the 05 Worlds. Of course Ando with her performances at Nationals is bumped off the team now with Asada age eligible so I will drop her from my original post. Kostner though was a World bronze medalist on home ice, I am not sure of newbie Kim being placed above her with both skating cleanly either. The triple-triples would probably push her past Rochette, Suguri, and she would probably beat Meissner with both skating their best at that point, but beyond that no gaurantees IMO. I would say 5th to 7th place if we take Ando off the Japanese team now.

    Remember the hypothetical scenario I am presenting is with everyone skating cleanly and the best they were possibly capable of doing that year. If Kim had skated at the 2006 Olympics with how it actually was skated and skated her own best of course she could have atleast been 4th or 5th, quite possibly even won silver or bronze.
  17. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, I was answering a question, but realized someone already answered it.
  18. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I think MK would have done well under COP in her prime. She would be the 1998 Olympic Champion under that scoring system IMO.
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Irina or Michelle would be the Olympic Champion in 2002 under COP too IMO. Sasha or maybe Fumie would have won the bronze. Sarah would have had many of her jumps downgraded, edge calls, be far behind after the short program. I actually have a hard time figuring out just how low she might have finished but it wouldnt have even been on the podium.
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    low jumps ? poor spins ? :rofl:
    Although I agree with you about the rankings, I think many top skaters wish they have her low jumps and poor spins :rolleyes:
  21. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Sasha had even lower jumps and honestly her spins weren't so hot either, and she managed to do quite well for herself under COP, it's like her gumby spirals and theatrical expression were enough to compensate.
  22. kukkura

    kukkura Member

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    If we're talking about Top 10 contenders, 2006 could have been Susanna Pöykiö's best year without the injuries. She had gained new status and confidence as a European silver medalist, she had all the jumps and she still had the Biellmann spin which she later had to give up because of back problems.
  23. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Poykio = Total Snooze :yawn:

    I don't really understand how she had as much success as she did considering her overall skating was just very bland.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Poykio was always underrated as much as Lepisto is overrated IMO. As it was in this hypothetical I made this thread about I think she would really get buried. If I recall correctly she did a clean short at the Olympics and only got 53 and change, closer to Mira Leung than Emily Hughes.
  25. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't Poykio considered the European version of MK?
  26. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I agree with you about Cohen's low jumps and weak landings and she was a notorious flutzer too, but I am seriously :confused: by you saying her spins weren't so hot. Her spins IMO were her biggest strength, even more so than her spirals.
  27. centerstage01

    centerstage01 Well-Known Member

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    You want us to ignore you? Very well.
  28. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    Personally i find this whole time machine speculation thing to be lol, but in the case of kwan's triple triple - I believe she directly implied in one of the press conference/interview quotes following her controversial bye to the olympics that she knew she needed a 3/3 to be competitive (not to mention her talk of her fixing the levels for COP and such. one of the guidelines for her bye was that the judges or whatever thought she had a shot to get the gold). also we have to consider that from what we saw of her competition performances in 2005, her jumps had the greatest height of her entire career

    personally with michelle - as much as i love her, it's impossible to speculate whether she would've medaled or got some place as horrible as 10th. we simply don't know unless we could've seen her complete 2006 programs.

    btw even though everyone wasn't at their best in 2006, I was still mesmerized by shizuka's performance. it was so elegant and musical...it's those qualities which stay with me and not necessarily who did the hardest program
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  29. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear New Member

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    It's kind of silly to include Kwan in this discussion, as everyone else mentioned were at least healthy enough to compete that season.
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well you sure wouldnt get me agreeing there at all. I dont think in anyway she was at her technical peak by 2005, truthfully she was well past it. Her technical peak as a skater was definitely 1996-2001 IMHO. Artistically is more debateable but I will say she continued experimenting with new looks and programs her whole career.

    Her highest jumps? Those were in 1997 and 1998 by far IMO.
  31. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Kwan completed high jumps at the 2004 Worlds. That big 3flip in her Tosca LP still impresses me to this day. Also, her 2001 Nationals SP to East of Eden and that big 3Lutz+2toe combination still stays in my mind. :)
  32. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I didnt say her jumps were small in later years but 97 and 98 were her biggest jumps IMO. Her biggest jumps after that were at the 2000 and 2001 Worlds where she attacked the programs all out with abandon and alot of speed which make her jumps even bigger as well.
  33. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    I'm not saying she was at her technical best then, just that at certain times in later years her jumps were very high (and not only that but it seemed with more power). 04 and 05 worlds for example.
    actually I think she declined artistically after 01-02 in order to focus more on the jumps, she left out a lot of choreography and did programs with more aggressive music in those later years. it kind of had mixed results but her 2004 tosca at nationals is one example of her later focus on technical rather than artistic. she seemed to perfect her technique on such jumps as the lutz (her jumps were all very strong in that program), and in 04 and 05 nationals and worlds (besides the flaws) I recall her spins were faster and she held them for more revolutions.
  34. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    1)Slutskaya- had the momentum only lost ONCE up to that point in the last two seasons and was quite consistent up to the O's
    2)Kwan- her summer training was apparently going extremely well before injuries got the best of her. Assuming she competed in at least one GP I think 6 triples and TT choreo would lock her in for silver
    3)Arakawa-really turned her training up several notches for the games, but her season was nothing special up to that point and she was not receiving world champ marks
    4)Asada- Technically astounding that season, but lacking PCS of the top three
    5)Cohen- let's be honest, her best would still include one fall and probably a two-foot or step out but her spins and spirals would of course garner high marks
    6)Suguri- she skated very well as it was, and the judges wanted to keep her in the mix to end her career on a high note (why she ignored them I'll never know)
    7)Rochette- I think 5 or 6 triples is doable in the free, but for some reason she had the worst programs that year
    8)Kim-this would have been her first senior competition and she was still a bit unpolished
    9)Meissner- the Olympics is often a coming out party for younger skaters and since her 3/3s were being ratified it's hard to deny her a top ten finish
    10)Sokolova- had some GREAT skates that season and made the GPF, but lack of a 3/3 at that point and poor basics would keep her down.
    11)Nakano- had a breakout season and probably could have landed an UR 3A (Yes, I know this is the fourth JPN lady, but you said EVERYONE, right?)
    12)Ando- the coaching change seemed to really mess her up that year and even at her best, her gorgeous 3z/3l's were getting DGed
    13)Kostner-already on a downward spiral and I don't think her best could produce more than 4 clean triples.
    14)Liashenko- just had to give a shout out to Freakin'
  35. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    1) Slutskaya
    2) Arakawa
    3) Asada
    4) Kwan
    5) Cohen
    6) Kim
    7) Suguri
    8) Rochette
    9) Ando
    10) Meissner
    11) Kostner
    12) Sokolova
  36. RockTheTassel

    RockTheTassel Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, her best LP that season was at nationals, where she stepped out of two jumps but skated the rest clean. If we're judging by the best everyone could have done, I think Sasha would have managed to stay on her feet, even if she didn't skate flawlessly.
  37. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    TT choreo is meant to be a good thing these days? Or maybe you meant she would only win silver since she had TT choreo. :lol:
  38. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    LOL, I more or less meant "choreography" in general since she had almost none in the seasons leading up to the 06 Games. Kwan is so versatile and confident in her movements that I bet she could turn even Mary Scotvold's choreography into a masterpiece.
  39. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    but let's also not forget a heavily two-foot 3flip in the short program there which could have put her behind. The bottom line is, even on Cohen's absolute best day she was likely to be outjumped by several of her competitors.
  40. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Also even with her 2 big mistakes Cohen landed the same # of triples as Shizuka yet was dusted by her by 8 points in the LP and overall. Slutskaya had only 4 triples, and only 2 of those clean in a way, and a really weak overall performance and yet finished less than 2 points back. So as great as Sasha's spins, spirals, and positions were it is not like Sasha had this huge advantage in non jump elements she was potrayed to have perhaps.

    My personal take is Sasha at her best could avoid falling. She did at the 2005 Worlds and her 2006 Nationals LP referred to earlier. Also at 2002 Cup of Russia, 2002 Nationals, and a few other times. If I was being generous I would say she could even maybe do a long program that was sort of "clean" with no touch downs, step outs, or two foots (though that might be generous). I would never go as far as to think she could do a program that was squeeky clean and had no -GOE on any of her jumps including no -GOE for a flutz as Fallcolor and some others might believe. Something like her short program in Turin is the best she could ever do IMO, and whether she could ever duplicate even that in a long program even at her competitive best is debateable.

    I cant imagine that would be enough to take down either Slutskaya or Shizuka skating the best they could including triple-triples for both (as both obviously could do them at that point in time). Whether it would be enough to beat a clean Asada or Kwan would depend on how stingy the judges were to newbie Asada at the big one vs girls who had been on top all quad especialy on the PCS, and how much Kwan had improved under COP in a year. There is Kim to maybe consider as well but I really cant imagine her chances that year were even as good as Asada's, despite that she beat an off form Asada to win World Juniors that year. Of course with the way the Olympics were actually skated as opposed to my hypothetical we can pretty safely say Asada for sure, a healthy Kwan, and even Kim for that matter had a big chance to really do something.