How would 2006 womens event in Turin have gone with everyone there and at best

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 21, 2010.

  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Sasha usually gets -GOE on even some of her clean jumps, especialy the flutz once the judges began to score it correctly. At the 2005 Worlds she had only 2 jumps at most with small mistakes and still had -GOE on 4 of her 7 jumping passes. For her standards that was the best she could do, in fact it is still probably her best SP performance ever. She also was lucky to skate last of the contenders in the SP.
     
  2. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    sorry i cannot agree! In 05 she only got -GOE on (f)lutz, 3flip that she stumbled on and 3+3seq on a step out, so it's understandable. When her jumps were clean she never got -GOE's.
    In Torino, i actually thought that other than the first 3 LP jumps, the rest of her jumps were the best quality ones she's ever done. It didn't have the usual fragile shaky edge landing we usually see from her. In fact at the olympics imo her GOE's were somewhat undermarked. :lol: The 3+3seq was 2 footed at the end, but a -1.14 is a bit harsh, no? when compared to Slutskaya's -.29 for a 2footed 3flip. Sasha's 3f+2t was beautiful, even if it was tiny, but got no GOE. :(
     
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    "At there best" . . . since Asada had beaten Cohen and Slutskaya earlier in the season, I think she would have won.

    Podium:

    1. Asada
    2. Slutskaya
    3. Kwan
    4. Cohen (assuming her best means only one screw up)
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    A triple flutz for Sasha is a clean triple lutz for her. She isnt capable of doing it as anything other than a flutz, she never once has in competition atleast. And she usually got -GOE on it even landing it cleanly once the judges began scoring it correctly (she was lucky she didnt compete now as it would be scored far worse today). So to count that as a "mistake" in any form for her makes no sense.

    Even with her shaky double axel (and Sasha even at her best is good for atleast one of those) it was still the best short program performance she ever did according to most. That was Sasha at her best, and she still probably wouldnt have even won the short if she didnt skate last considering she won it by only 0.03 as it was.

    I also think the judges scored Sasha's jump GOE correctly in Turin. Most of them should be 0s IMHO. Sasha's strength is everything outside the jumps and her medicore basic skating. Her jumps are small and quite ordinary in everyway with sometimes bad takeoff technique even when she does make them. In 2004 she was getting outrageous GOE on her jumps (far higher than say then nobody Arakawa in the same events) so it was nice to see them scored correctly in her final 2 injury marred seasons (apart from blip of a comeback).
     
  5. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Well, if we are going by the way they were skating currently at that time, I would say the top 4 would have been Irina, Shiz, Mao, Sasha.The best Irina ever skated was 2005 worlds LP. if she had skated like that she would have won. Shizuka would have been a close second, even if she had done a 3/3, I just do not see how the judges would deny Irina the gold with that type of skate. I think Mao would have taken the bronze with a clean skate. Sasha's very best has always included some type of error. She has never skated an error free program so I cannot put her at the top because her best was never good enough, sadly. I don't know where to fit Kimmie in here. She skated amazing at worlds. I guess I would put her ahead of Sasha because technically it was better than anything Sasha was capeable of. maybe I would even put her third. I have no idea how to rank Michelle. Based on the previous season, and how she skated at that cheesefest, she would really not be in the mix due to her hip injury. But we really truly do not know.
     
  6. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    If everyone was clean, by looking at the SP scores i would think that panel of judges would award the gold to Sasha Cohen, silver to Mao, Bronze to Arakawa or Slutskaya. I think Shiz would be favored for bronze medal considering how she almost outscored Ira with a slighly flawed combination jump. Yuna would have rounded of top 5.

    But, as we all know, Sasha could never deliver two back to back clean performance at a competition, hence Mao would have taken the gold ahead Shiz and Ira. i do think scores would have been so tight that Yuna would have had a realistic chance for gold, after all Yuna did finish ahead of Mao later that year at the world Juniors and successfully did a 3+3 in both her programs.
     
  7. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure even how to consider what Sasha's best might have been given that she never, ever delivered a clean short and a clean long in a senior competition -- at least not once that I remember. Do you hypothesize that this might be that one time when everything works (It's a Miracle!) or are we talking "skates her best" given a more likely jump scenario?

    I mean, using the "skates her best" theory I'd guess any number of skaters could have won in 2006. I just don't think you can completely get away from competition psyche -- some skaters are (and were, then) much better competitors than others. Czisny is a beautiful skater on so many levels, but she has big nerve problems and is not a good competitor. Do you set up the hypothetical competition as if those nerves weren't an issue and Czisny magically lands every jump along with delivering her wow spins? (And I know Czisny wasn't at the Olympics in 2006, but she's the best example that comes right to mind.)

    Maybe it would make more sense to consider what if each skater in the event had skated her SP as well as she'd skated her SP at any of the GP or Euro/4CC events that season, and the same for the LP. Then you'd at least be in the realm of the reasonably possible.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2010
  8. taf2002

    taf2002 Texas slumlord

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    For all the contenders who were actually there, I think we have to take the results that they actually had...Sasha with 2 falls, Shizuka with only 5 triples & no 3/3, & Irina with a completely lackluster LP. There is no reason to believe they could have done anything other than what they did. Same with Fumie, Miki, et all.

    We can only speculate about what Mao, Yuna, & Michelle would have done. In my dream scenerio Michelle is healthy with 3 & 4 levels on everything & her 3T/3T successful. So the result is

    Kwan
    Shizuka
    Cohen
    Slutskya

    No way do the judges let either of the 14yr olds win.
     
  9. Indra486

    Indra486 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, she did and she fell on it. I was wondering where Miki would have placed with a successful quad and triple-triple since we're all assuming that everyone would land their planned jump layout.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Mao and Yu Na were both 15. ;)
     
  11. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    It was a rhetorical question.

    :p

    I know she fell on the quad, and I also wonder where Miki would've placed if she performed two clean programs.
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Wow I didnt realize Miki even tried the quad in Turin. I guess she realized her only hope of a medal there was to do something like that. Was that the only quad she tried after fall of 2004?
     
  13. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think it was the only quad after 2004.

    :)
     
  14. Indra486

    Indra486 Well-Known Member

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    Whoops! Sorry! It's finals week. :lol:

    ETA: I'm pretty sure Miki's last quad attempt was at the 08 GPF and she landed it UR-ed.
     
  15. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    Don't worry!

    Oh, right! I forgot about that! Yes, her last quad was at the 2008 GPF!
     
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I really don't get this scenario.
     
  17. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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  18. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Michelle being higher than even 4th or even 5th at Torino is a joke. She is in no way meant for COP with those low jumps and poor spins even in her prime.
     
  19. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    IGNORE.
     
  20. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    Her jumps at 04 worlds SP was a bit better imo. At 06 worlds her 2A in the SP was magnificient. If this thread is only about skaters at their "best" but not necessarily clean then we might as well just rule her off the podium. For me, Sasha at her "best" in the LP was skating a clean, 7-triple performance without negative GOE (except for flutz). (yes i know that never happened) Still in that case, I think she would have finished second. Arakawa would have won, as she was the best skater at that olympics :respec:
     
  21. longingfornia

    longingfornia New Member

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    1 Sasha
    2 Irina
     
  22. key65man

    key65man New Member

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    The best total scores (single international competition) for the aforementioned skaters in the 05-06 season:

    1. Irina Slutskaya 198.06 COR in Russia (196.12 COC in China)
    2. Shizuka Arakawa 191.34 Olympics in Italy
    3. Kimmie Meissner 189.87 Worlds in Canada
    4. Mao Asada 189.62 GPF in Japan (182.42 TEB in France)
    5. Sasha Cohen 183.36 Olympics
    6. Fumie Suguri 181.27 Worlds
    7. Carolina Kostner 172.45 Euro in France
    8. Miki Ando 172.30 COR
    9. Joannie Rochette 167.27 Olympics

    Yuna Kim 177.54 "Junior" Worlds in Slovenia (3-2 in SP while 3F-3T in LP)
    Michelle Kwan N/A

    The second best score in parenthesis for those who are not comfortable with home turf stuff.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2010
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I have.
     
  24. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    The videos of Yu Na in 2005-06 look strikingly like Michelle Kwan 1994-95, which she could out jump everybody but still not medal.

    1995 WC Ladies FP Michelle Kwan
     
  25. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yuna was doing harder jumps than Michelle. I don't think Michelle ever did 3f-3t. Plus Yuna's Roxanne SP was very sophisticated and not juniorish. I'm not saying she would have medaled, I just think she would have been higher than 7th or 9th, maybe 4th or 5th if I had to guess.
    Also, to me, Yuna at that age resembles more Michelle during the 1995-1996 season, physically still looking a bit young but skating with a lot of maturity and expression
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RqDWcvo5b0
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2010
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I dont see anyway in 2006 Yu Na beats a hypothetical at their best and totally clean Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa, or Asada so already 5th is the absolute highest she could even hope for in this scenario. Whether she would even be placed over a clean Kwan that year is even debateable, alot would depend on how much Kwan had improved under COP in the year since the 05 Worlds. Of course Ando with her performances at Nationals is bumped off the team now with Asada age eligible so I will drop her from my original post. Kostner though was a World bronze medalist on home ice, I am not sure of newbie Kim being placed above her with both skating cleanly either. The triple-triples would probably push her past Rochette, Suguri, and she would probably beat Meissner with both skating their best at that point, but beyond that no gaurantees IMO. I would say 5th to 7th place if we take Ando off the Japanese team now.

    Remember the hypothetical scenario I am presenting is with everyone skating cleanly and the best they were possibly capable of doing that year. If Kim had skated at the 2006 Olympics with how it actually was skated and skated her own best of course she could have atleast been 4th or 5th, quite possibly even won silver or bronze.
     
  27. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, I was answering a question, but realized someone already answered it.
     
  28. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I think MK would have done well under COP in her prime. She would be the 1998 Olympic Champion under that scoring system IMO.
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Irina or Michelle would be the Olympic Champion in 2002 under COP too IMO. Sasha or maybe Fumie would have won the bronze. Sarah would have had many of her jumps downgraded, edge calls, be far behind after the short program. I actually have a hard time figuring out just how low she might have finished but it wouldnt have even been on the podium.
     
  30. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    low jumps ? poor spins ? :rofl:
    Although I agree with you about the rankings, I think many top skaters wish they have her low jumps and poor spins :rolleyes: