How good is Joannie Rochette as a skater?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by krenseby, Jul 12, 2011.

  1. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    For that matter, when has the word consistent and a Canadian lady skater ever appeared in the same sentence? :p
     
  2. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I did say 'relative' consistency. :) I mean, take a look at the current state of Canadian ladies and the sub-par performances of the final flight at Worlds.

    Top Ten Jen Robinson is probably the most consistent lady Canada has had in the past 20 years. Unfortunately she didn't have much else - no offense intended, she was, as they say 'a good ambassador for the sport'.
     
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    She became GPF champion since she had the competition of her life, the field was incredibly weak, and Ando who easily won the LP skating first had bombed the SP. Dont get me wrong, I was very happy for her when it happened. Czisny couldnt even medal at Worlds despite again being close to her best in the season of her career, and it being arguably the worst womens Worlds in skating history.

    I like Czisny alot and enjoy her skating, but she is not a better skater than Joannie. The only thing she does better is spins and spirals. If both skated their best Joannie would crush Czisny.
     
  4. b-man

    b-man Active Member

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    True, Czisny didn't medal at worlds, but Rochette had but a single medal in seven appearances, not such an exemplary record. And her path to an entry at worlds was much easier than Czisny, which gave her greater international exposure and more chances to leave positive impressions with international judges.
     
  5. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Yes Joannie was great in Vancouver but overall she wasn't that great.Yes she could be great but she was inconsistent. Mira for instance was much more accomplished at 16 then Joannie was. It took till she was 21 to finish higher at Worlds then Mirai did for instance. Let's face it Mirai would be going to Worlds every year if she faced the competition Joannie did in Canada.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2011
  6. Skate Talker

    Skate Talker Well-Known Member

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    Joannie was an early bloomer but then took the extra-ordinary step of re-working all her jumps which took her out of the game for a couple of years before she started showing the results. Unfortunately imho it took the judges quite a while to catch on to the quality of her skating after that and she had to fight hard to get their attention. I have nothing but admiration for her and the difficult path she took.
     
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  7. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Flatt accomplished more by sixteen than Rochette. So did Caroline Zhang. Would you argue they're better skaters as well.
     
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  8. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Rochette is a great skater, but not without her weaknesses. Her spins for example tend to slow down quite evidently and are quite dull. Her jumping technique, jump quality, edge quality and ability to display complex choreography on the other hand are quite amazing.

    She was clearly in medal contention going into Vancouver with Ando and Kostner. Everyone else had an outside shot only. Then Kostner bombed and Ando skated conservatively in the free and that was that. If Nagasu had skated better internationally that season she might be a threat for the bronze. And if Lepisto had done a 3/3 instead of 3/2 in the short I probably would have given her the bronze. So, she earned her bronze, but not without some luck and politiking on her side.
     
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  9. skfan

    skfan New Member

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    i don't see the argument that joannie's skating is weaker than alissa's. i could care less about the medal counts--for me, joannie's skating (in general) has much more speed, power, emotional conviction, connection with the audience. joannie also has a wider emotional / theatrical range.

    i don't find alissa's spins as amazing as other posters do, because even though her spins are fast they don't strike beautiful positions a la sasha cohen, and since i'm an MK fan i'm used to weak spins LOL i'll give up the spins for a sense that the skater is truly _with_ the music. joannie and akiko are the ladies in recent years whose musical interpretation and connection to the audience impressed me, so i must stick up for joannie here :)
     
  10. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Czisny's placement was just wrong. She should have been 3rd or at least 4th. She only messed up one jump in the whole competition, which is a lot less than people placing above her. Everything else about her was superb. Way undermarked.

    I love Sasha but I have to disagree that she has beautiful positions in any of her non-flexy spins. Alissa's camel has a beautiful arched position - a lot better than Sasha's.
     
  11. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Well, it made sense, for me, the 3, 4, 5 places were a toss up, and considering Worlds were in Russia and Kostner is always rewarded when she skates well and has lots of hardware on her side, I'm not surprised Alissa ended up 5th.
     
  12. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Well, Kostner's flip in the short should also have been downgraded and her pop of the loop in the free was and should have been much more costly than Czisny's fall on the lutz. Kostner was not that much faster than Czisny at that competition, but Czisny did have much better spins and harder triples. All things considered I would probably have given it to Czisny too. IMO Leonova was a solid 5th.
     
  13. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I'd have to rewatch the competition, but I didn't have a wuzrobbed sense and IIRC, she took herself out of medal contention in the SP?

    Alissa is a much better spinner than Sasha IMO - one of the best in the world. Yes, Sasha always struck beautiful positions. But there more to a good spin than just that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  14. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

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    Alissa was 4th after the SP, definitely within striking distance, her only mistake in the SP was edge call on the flip and a forward landing.
     
  15. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    :confused: And Joannie has indeed been to every Worlds since 2003 too.

    And every one has a different growing curve. Being successful at a young age is good, but it doesn't mean having success a little later on is worth less.
     
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  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think we can all agree that Mirai was better at the same age, has more potential, and SHOULD end up being a better and more successful skater than Joannie in the long run. However the point is up to now she is not and has never been the better skater. If she doesnt end up as it, it means she has probably underachieved which would be unfortunate. However while it is not too late for her each season seems to cast more questions on whether Nagasu will fulfill her potential or not.

    As for the Czisny comparision as I said both Rochette and Czisny skating their best Joannie would crush her. If Joannie went to Worlds this year and skated a clean short with just one fall in the long as Alissa did she probably would have won given the field and skating, as opposed to coming 5th as Alissa did. I am surprised anyone is even suggesting Czisny is better than her, other than just really liking her skating for certain individuals.
     
  17. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    A pop is less disruptive than a fall, and Czisny's fall was right off the top, sucking the life out of her program a bit, while Kostner's pop was at the end of the program, so it was more just a little fluke. When you consider these things, it makes sense that Carolina came out on top. Think Dai's FS at the Olympics, he just made that one mistake, but yet he finished 5th in the FS behind others who made bigger/more mistakes, because his one mistake was a fall on the opening jump of a program and that set the tone. Had Alissa landed her opening lutz and fallen on the 2nd, I have no doubt her score would have been higher.
     
  18. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    A couple of months later, I gotta say the LP that I've watched more than any other from worlds in Kostner's. It was for the ages. Alissa skated way better at the GPF and nationals, not just in terms of mistakes, but energy and passion as well. She was on the defensive in Russia and Carolina attacked with brilliant maturity and elegance. I loved loved looooved her performance.
     
  19. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    I first noticed Joannie back around 2003 and told everyone she was going to be a star. She was inconsistent then, but there was a glimmer of greatness.

    I think she is the most well-rounded female skater in the world. She has a full complement of triples, minus the Axel (something you can't say about Yu-Na), demonstrated an ability to skate to various types of music (she probably has the most varied competitive program music of any top skater).

    Her carriage and stroking are also solid. She doesn't have the flexibility of say, Alissa Czisny, and probably never will. But that doesn't keep her from working the system and getting level 4s on her spins (aside from the layback in the SP).

    I actually think she had one of the most ambitious programs planned - 7 triples and two double Axels, especially with many of them coming after the halfway point in her programs.

    On top of all, she has tremendous focus (as evidenced at the Olympics). I hope we can see her skate again soon.
     
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  20. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

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    I think the best thing about Joannie is that she has textbook technique on all of her jumps, and one of the few skaters I would use to illustrate the difference between a flip and lutz to someone who didn't know.

    I agree with all_empty - the phrase that first comes to mind when I think of Joannie is "well-rounded". Other than her jump technique, I never felt she had the best _____ in the world, but at the same time she wasn't sorely lacking in any area as well.

    I think the only gripe I'd have about her skating is that she has great musicality, but I never felt like she really "sold" her programs. I think her Jimi Hendrix Little Wing short was daring and well-choreographed, but it seemed like it she never really got into the music.
     
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  21. Ella-skater

    Ella-skater New Member

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    the thing about Joannie is that she's a professional, It must've been really hard for her to perform a couple of days after losing her mother, She did it exceptionally though. http://www.olympic.org/figure-skating
     
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    That's what is scary. Mao landed 3 triple axels and a bunch of other jumps, had the lovely lines and posture and yet the judges gave her low marks. That's not a knock on Joannie, but IMO she was a bit overrated, IMO. She fully deserved the Olympic bronze, particularly under the tragic circumstances, but I never developed into a fan of hers. She was too inconsistent jumpwise and her artistry never moved me.
     
  23. Lookingood

    Lookingood New Member

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    6 triples total for Mao Sp& Lp , Joannie 9 triples total Sp&Lp few step out but still landed her all triple jumps.
    I have no idea why joannie was bit Overrated, her score well deserved!
    To me its just Mirai nagasu was Undermarked!.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2011
  24. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Posture is captured in the explanations about the program components under the Performance/Execution mark.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

    It is up the judges to apply it.

    Having said that, Joannie is one of those skaters with beautiful posture so I am not sure why people would criticise her for it. She looks fabulous in a halter neck showing her back. If she had bad posture that would show it up.

    But I have always found her an organic skater - that it comes across as very natural. Her musicality is quite superb. Her programs have attention to detail and she shows a great musical understanding as she works not only with the nuances of the music but also the phrasing (that is taking the time to give what she is expressing it's full value). For me she has probably presented the most complete packages of all the ladies in recent years.

    All that probably belies that fact that she has probably worked her butt off to get there.

    And I think out of all the skaters competing, she really has presented herself off the ice in a most professional and intelligent manner. She wrote a piece on her blog a while ago about the development of one of her programs. It was excellent and really conveyed what a mature and thoughtful person she is.
     
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    While I thought Mao was a bit undermarked keep in mind:

    1. Mao gave up atleast 10 points in the LP with two major mistakes- a singled triple and another downgraded one.

    2. Mao did not attempt all the other triples, she focused on the triple axel to the detriment of some of her other elements.

    3. Mao had that Tarasova choreography which wasnt really the best nor did it suit her greatest strengths as an artist.
     
  26. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Let's not forget that Mao did a 2.5 flip and a single toe loop in the back half of her free skate. That pretty much negates the triple axels altogether.

    Yes, I agree! Mirai had the 2nd best FS of the night, IMO. She should have been closer to the bronze overall. The gap was way too wide. Joannie's SP was killer, though. Best SP of her life, IMO, and under those circumstances...
     
  27. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    This thread resurfacing brought me a curiosity. Is Joannie coming back? ever? I wish I could see her competitive skating at least one more season even if she's not aiming for Sochi. I can't still let go of images of her eyes full with joyment and emotions at the Olympics.
     
  28. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Joannie always struck me as being very similar to Michelle Kwan in the deep steady edges, excellent upper body work, musicality...AND even in body type (which may explain the above). Neither is 'ballet thin' even when at her slimmest, with shortish muscular legs in relation to a longish torso. Apparently a perfect set of physical factors for beautiful ice skating!
     
  29. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Joannie has managed to stay competitive with an adult body. I think that is the challenge to longevity that today's female skaters face. Some skaters make it to the top at an early age like Kimmie, Mirai, and Caroline Z, but they struggle as their body matures. Injuries do in other early achievers such as Tara.