How do you think Gordeeva & Grinkov would have fared at the Nagano Olympics?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by campbellka, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. JJS5056

    JJS5056 Active Member

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    Interesting. Judgejudy mentioned the same theory upthread. Almost sounds like the two of you... well, nevermind.

    G/G could have easily won gold in Nagano. That field was the weakest in Olympic competition since at least the 1970s (and possibly further back). It's tough to speculate for many obvious reasons, but in terms of content, I'm not sure whether to assume they would have pushed themselves and included the triples or played it safe with double axels. Had they won 96 and 97 Worlds with 2A's, would the judges have considered 3T's to be of such importance anyway? And, entering the competition having won the previous two Worlds in addition to their earlier success would have certainly given them a bit of a boost in reputation scoring.

    I think they were more likely to have won with 2A's, as a solid short would have knocked B/S - the only team that could possibly match their quality - out of the top 3, making it easier for G/G to skate to gold in the free. 3T's would've been a greater risk, and they seemed to be at their worst when trying to up their difficulty previously in their career. Regardless, they would've certainly won a medal; the color would have depended on their consistency and whether we are assuming B/S might've performed better with less pressure.

    I still wish Shishkova/Naumov had competed over E/B. E/B's programs that year were especially trashy, and they were on a downward trajectory technically. S/N never received the respect they deserved. They should have been 3-time World Champions and made the Russian teams well beyond the 1996 season IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  2. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I had a real blonde moment within that past post.. I was speaking as if K/D and M/D could both be pairs at the same time.. as if Artur Dmitriev could somehow clone himself.. *smacks head*
     
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  3. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I think you've stumbled onto a great idea. Skate with one partner, then run into the dressing room to change to the other costume and skate with the other partner.

    Perhaps this idea would work better in a new compulsory dance event. Maybe they could do it like show jumping, where they take the top 4 couples after the preliminaries and have them each skate the CD again with each of the other 3 partners. Medals could be awarded separately to the man and woman with the cumulative best scores.

    (For those who don't follow show jumping, they have the top four riders jump the course again on each others' horses.)
     
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    You are wrong about the throw jumps. As singles skaters, the axel is the most difficult jump, but the double axel is not more difficult than a triple toe (although some skaters just can't do the axel). In the throws the throw 3t is more difficult than the throw 2A. That's why you don't even see pairs doing the throw 2A at the senior level anymore.

    In general, G&G's throws were great but at the 94 Olympics Katia had a forward landing on the throw 2A, as if she almost came to a stop on the landing, then recovered. Scott Hamilton made a big deal about Sergei's flow continuing and Artur coming to a stop. Artur did not actually come to a stop; he was just had less flow.

    Nobody questions G&G's superior basic skating skills but in the 1994 Olympics both their SP & LP had minor flaws, while M&D were absolutely clean, with some of their moves harder than G&G's. M&D were a lot more creative in their choreography and a lot more passionate in their musical interpretation. Also M&D skated with more confidence. This really was a toss up, and not a slam dunk for G&G as you are making it sound, but I see from your thesis-type posts that you have a strong bias toward G&G, and you will justify every move of them as more difficult and better than M&D's.

    As much as I loved G&G, I have to say that they did not really bring anything brand new to pairs skating until after they turned pro. M&D were innovative, and they really changed pairs skating from a series of standardized elements to creative work of art on the ice.
     
  5. campbellka

    campbellka New Member

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    Sounds like you have a bias toward M&D.
     
  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I love them both. I really could not pick a winner in 94; it was that close. The reason I posted positive comments about M&D is that they often don't get credit for their greatness.
     
  7. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that would be interesting. It might help solve the problem of people who can't find partners lol.
     
  8. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I agree these two performances were pretty much a toss-up. I think, technically, M&D did outperform G&G, because of the SBS triples and the lack of errors. I think it is a bit revisionist history/ grasping at straws to make a great deal over lifts. In that era, lifts were lifts and no one got much extra credit for more difficult ones. M&D's lifts were hard enough to be gold medal worthy.

    I honestly don't understand the need for anyone to rationalize at length over the superiority of G&G or to attempt to re-frame this very narrow win like it was a blowout. G&G are, I think, still widely held as the vision of what great pairs skating should be. Kind of like with Greg Louganis in diving, when the Chinese decided to build a pairs program, they started by gathering as much G&G video as they could. IMO their performances speak for themselves; they really need no defending.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  9. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    You referring to Vash01? Nothing he said didnt make total sense or was in bias of M&D. It is not like he said M&D had the hardest lifts or the worlds best triple twist over G&G, B&E, and S&N. He certainly made alot more sense than the apparent G&G fanatic who even claims a throw double axel is the hardest throw, and they had the best executed throws that night when they were the only one in the final 4 to badly tip forward their edge on one, LOL!
     
  10. duane

    duane New Member

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    I wonder how great a flow Sergei would have had if instead of throwing the bird-like 4'11", 80lb Katia, he had to throw a partner who was 4 inches taller and 25 or so pounds heavier. ;)
     
  11. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I used to cringe when I saw Kris Wirtz throw Kristy Wirtz near the end of their careers. She's definitely not a huge woman, but she isn't TINY, and he's a really small guy.
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kris and Kristy had huge throws (for the time) though which was pretty amazing given their size differential (or lack thereof). Their twists were really weak though. Their lifts were simple but got better in execution as years went on too, and IMO better than Woetzel & Steuer for instance.
     
  13. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I read somewhere that Kristy was 101 lbs and Kris 152, but I don't think Kristy was that light nor was Kris that heavy. They honestly both looked around 125 lbs to me lol. I mean, CHAN is around 150, and he is MUCH bigger than Wirtz was then.

    http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/001064/f1/0919sargeant-wirtz4-v6.jpg
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree they were both around 125. I wouldnt be surprised if she weighed more than him. They would never admit that though, as I am sure it would be a bit embarassing for him. What were their heights btw. I seem to recall him being taller but not by much.
     
  15. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Kristy is apparently just under five feet (152 cm) and Kris is 170 cm, roughly 5 foot 6. Upon second look at the picture, she does actually look much shorter. Her really short height might explain her lower weight, but I'd still say no lighter than 115 lbs. I'd still guess Kris at 125 lbs because he looked smaller than Shawn Sawyer, who I know is 5'4" and 130. Cynthia Phaneuf at 5'6" and 132/136 (I've seen both weights listed in 2010 Olympic profiles, although I think she might have been 140+ in her last season) is definitely bigger than him.

    I think if they weren't a couple off the ice, they might have looked for other partners, although I remember Kristy being slightly smaller at the beginning of their career.