How Did This 3Lz Get Downgrade??

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Mirai4life, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. Mirai4life

    Mirai4life New Member

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  2. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    She hooks the landing.

    Which I'm sure the tech panel with their frame-by-frame super-slo-mo noticed.
  3. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    Arguably a harsh call, but over-rotated?!
  4. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    It looks to me like an under-rotation but not a downgrade.
  5. icellist

    icellist Member

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    To me, it looks like it's within the 1/4 turn rotation. No idea how the tech panel saw a down grade. The landing was barely hooked, she did almost all the rotation in the air.

    ETA to add that the protocols said it was an underrotation, not a downgrade. But that doesn't lower my skepticism that it was within a 1/4 turn
  6. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Questionable.
  7. acraven

    acraven Active Member

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    It doesn't look particularly short in real time from the youtube video, but that is not the video the technical panel uses to examine jumps. Things can look strikingly different from different angles, and the panel can watch in slow-motion or even freeze-frame the video of the landing.
  8. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    ITA. From the angle, this is definitely not the same view the tech panel has. It is impossible to know what they saw and it is completely irrelevant what it looks like from this angle.
  9. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Very. Mirai can't catch a break.
  10. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Deleted, my mistake.
  11. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Nitpicky call IMO. It seemed within the 1/4 rule
  12. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Oh for crying out loud. "Questionable" "nitpicky" "harsh"? These are internationally qualified ISU-certified Technical Specialists, who train nearly as much as the skaters do, who would have had a better angle on that jump and the ability to slo-mo, super-slo-mo, and freeze frame the video.

    She hooked the landing. Obviously the freeze-frame showed an UR of more than a quarter. Want to get mad at somebody? Get mad at Mirai for not fixing her constant UR problems!
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  13. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    To be completely fair, some TC's are known for being stricter than others. Shin Amano manages to see more UR's and ask for more reviews than pretty much any other TC around (in singles), as an example. I think the problem is how the original question was worded, not so much the fact it was brought up. Instead of asking where a possible review might have come from and if anyone who had judging experience could help them spot the potential problem, the OP said he/she though the jump was over-rotated. And next thing you know, we have a konsipracy theory afoot. ahem.

    Her jumps look a lot closer to being all the way around, especially for an early outing, than they have for a while. I wouldn't call them fixed, and neither would the technical controller by the looks of things, but they are heading in the right direction.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  14. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    Whatever they are, however they're trained, they're still human. They know in the back of their head that Mirai is known for underrotating and even if they want to ignore that, as I said, they're human, so they're probably not able to 100%. In return that probably means that more jumps get reviewed, not only from Mirai but from skaters who are known to have a problem with fully rotating jumps and in the end, it's probably more likely that the result will not be in favor of the skater then in favor.

    Personally, I find it very hard to see anything on the YouTube Video because of its resolution. It looked rotated to me and her landing looked like a lot of other landings look that don't necessarily get any deducation but I think with the resolution of the video most any jump would look like that to me :p
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    How can you say that the call was questionable when you haven't seen that jump in slow motion?
  16. acraven

    acraven Active Member

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    Or from the angle the technical panel used.
  17. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Mirai gets a ton of UR and downgrades so they are going to be more likely to take a second look at her jumps. She has created this problem for herself. I wouldn't be surprised if some of her jumps are reviewed that other athletes would never have reviewed.
  18. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Yeah I think Mirai developed this reputation and continues to haunt her. I see way worse landings than this that don't get called. What I can say is that she often doesn't have a clean landing edge so that's contributing to the issue I'm sure, UR or no UR
  19. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    If you really think this way, then why give your opinion or discuss figure skating at all? I would think you would just watch it and have some expert tell you what you should think.
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  20. Mirai4life

    Mirai4life New Member

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    probably

    Thanks guys for contributing to the discussion. I'm no expert on this. X)
  21. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I daresay the tech panel would not put more emphasis on checking the landing because of who the skater is. Having been a TC, the process is as she skated any of the panel can call review after each element and then after the program they would review it in slow mo. You can actually set the slow mo to go frame by frame to show the exact point of landing. So it is pretty precise.
  22. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    They wouldn't consciously select a skater's jumps for review based on the skater's reputation, but basic cognitive psychology 101 tells us that it is easy to see what we expect to see. I don't see how anyone can deny that a reputation for underrotating jumps is positively correlated with having your jumps reviewed.
  23. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Mirai (if you read this),

    You are getting 'special treatment' for the wrong reasons by the judges. Who gives a sh-t! Don't get yourself down about it. Use it to motivate yourself. They just hold you to a higher standard. Simply make sure your blade is where it needs to be on the ice and realize they are not going to cut you any slack.

    You are special.

    Signed,

    Not even a fan but someone who thinks you deserve a lot better!
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  24. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I think this is true.

    And that the reviews themselves, when performed, are much more precise than anything that can be determined from low-res youtube videos (and at a different angle).

    Some tech panel members may be stricter than others, but the strictness probably comes from reviewing more jumps at least as much as giving the call in borderline cases.

    So I think the majority of mistaken calls are jumps that should have been reviewed and called under/downgraded but weren't. Either because the skater did not have a reputation for underrotating or because the jump looked good from the angle the tech panel watched in real time.
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  25. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    If somebody is known to cheat their jumps, the only thing that will change is that you will be watching their landings more closely. The technical panel doesn't have the time to review every single jump. Regardless of who the skater is.

    You notice a hooked landing on the jump > you review the jump.

    That's how it works. There is nothing unfair about it.
  26. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Or say the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin!
  27. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Dear Mirai (if you read this)

    Fix your UR problem. Then you won't have any problems at all. The judges aren't out to get you - the tech panel is giving you valuable feedback.

    Signed,

    Sick of the "There's a World-Wide Conspiracy To Get Mirai!"
  28. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    The only angle that is relevant is the one the technical panel uses.

    Again: If you haven't even see that particular jump in slow-motion, you have no reason to argue that the decision to downgrade it was incorrect.

    A jump either is or isn't underrotated more than 1/4 or 1/2 and that decision is based on cold hard facts.

    And if there is doubt because it is so close, the benefit is then given to the skater.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  29. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    If it's any consolation, I think she did deserve a UR call on the end of the opening 3F-2T-2T sequence, which was not called.
  30. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Angle? Who said anything about angles? If skating wants to attract more fans, it should show the replays that lead to the technical calls. That is what is done in other sports. Or the caller can just call based on the naked eye, like in baseball.
  31. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I think some of the broadcasters actually do a really good job of showing questionable calls on replays. Particularly Eurosport will show the feet in close up on what the commentators consider dodgy landings and the commentators there really do try to explain it. It doesn't have to be the video of the angle to see the problem.
  32. acraven

    acraven Active Member

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    I've often wondered whether what is shown on the jumbotron (at US events) is from the technical panel's camera.
  33. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    You are right.

    I am not sure how doable it would be though.

    A skater finishes their performance and you get a short amount of time to get the replays finished and ready to be broadcast.

    I guess it could work if you had a system where the technical panel would 'flag jumps for review' straight away as they happen and then the tv crew would immediately get to work to get close replays of those jumps prepared.

    You probably could never cover all of the jumps, though, as technical panel can always make some last minute decisions not giving the director the time to prep it.

    But even more importantly when the attitude of a lot of media people is similar to Scott Hamilton's ('OMG the system is so hard and complicated, nobody could possibly ever understand it' :drama:), then there won't be a will to do something like that.
  34. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Mine was supposed to be kind of a cute, motivational, tongue-in-cheek post, by the way
  35. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    But it is done all the time in other sports. I've seen it in football where a call is made, and within 30 seconds they are showing a replay of the feet to show whether or not the catcher was in or out of bounds. They then play the replay backwards and forwards to emphasize what happened. The same could be done with jumps and spins.
  36. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Die hard fans might care about this. Most viewers wouldn't and probably couldn't care less. As a skating judge I don't really care to rewatch elements over and over again. Maybe just look at it once and then happy to move on. Even when I have video replay at my disposal when judging I don't sit there rewatching the elements. Try to judge them on what I see at the time. And how many elements would you get to rewatch after the program?
  37. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    It isn't really rewatching elements. In football they go back and forth with the toes of the guy catching the ball touching the ground and up and down and up. It takes about 5 seconds in total and it is to make a point. Same with the computer simulation of the ball landing just inside, outside, or on the line in tennis. It makes a point so the fans know that even though they couldn't see it in real time, the call was correct (or not correct as the case may be.)
  38. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    At French Masters this year, as well as having the challenge system, they showed on the big screen what I guess what the technical specialist must have been looking at - so during the program we could see them adding levels for spins & footwork & adjusting the planned content jumps against what was actually performed, and then after the skate they showed what the panel was reviewing; some elements were just looked at once, some a few times. I found it very interesting - I suppose perhaps only because I am a die hard fan - but I also think that seeing what the panel is reviewing would make it easier to explain to a non die hard fan why a certain skater got certain marks.

    Exactly. Replays don't put viewers off in other sports, and the way it was done in Orleans didn't take up any more time than the normal wait for scores.
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  39. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    But that would mean looking at relevant elements before the scores come up instead of talking about holding out moves, feeling the music, and how slippery ice is. US commentators would nevah :p
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  40. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    The commentators should be able to see this, too, so they could better explain to the viewers why a score is likely to be low. They are often as surprised as the viewers by a skater's low score.