How could healthy and clean Kwan have done in Turin

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by KimGOAT, Apr 15, 2014.

How could healthy 6 triple Kwan do do in Turin

  1. gold

    64 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. silver

    61 vote(s)
    31.8%
  3. bronze

    34 vote(s)
    17.7%
  4. 4th or lower

    33 vote(s)
    17.2%
  1. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

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    That darn flip cost her at each and every Olympics she was at.
     
  2. giselle23

    giselle23 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I have sometimes mused that a chapter in Michelle's biography could be called That Darn Flip!
     
  3. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    I'm still not over Kwan not getting bronze at 2005 Worlds. Damn qualifying round...
     
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  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Pain medication.
     
  5. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    What do you mean? Pain meds confused her?
     
  6. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the side effects of pain medication resulted in this unfortunate fashion choice. The warning labels only address alcohol and machinery, despite how long a photo of a bad appearance can follow somebody in the internet age :drama:

    ... :rofl: ... we need a "spreading it on thick" emoticon.
     
  7. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Ahhh, the off-season nuttery, don't you love it? :p
     
  8. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    In her 2009 ATS skate ("Winter Song"), she did her corkscrew spin from a reverse entrance. That was the only way she could have earned a reliable L3 layback in 2006 without hurting herself, imo. Reverse entrance to corkscrew, grab blade of free foot and rotate torso from sideways to layback catchfoot. The 8 revs feature didn't get added until later.

    USFSA really should have partnered with USA Gymnastics when they realized COP was coming. The role of a federation in a COP sport is to push proposals to the scale of values that help their stars and their country's style of skaters, generally. The initial versions of COP left the impression that they were inept. USAG could have been a key advisor to them. Oh well!
     
  9. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    You mean the crossfoot spin right?

    Btw, isn't this sit spin position at around 2:31 a new variation she had never done before either? (she lowers her back and body to the free leg)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYcF9eVI3bk#t=2m31s
     
  10. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    ^ Yes she did a beautiful pike position sit spin in the ATS ice shows :) she had not done it in competition previously but I am sure she would have likely done it in 2006 had she competed.

    Also where are these summer reports about the bells program? :eek:
     
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I always imagined Mao Asada's Bells Program was what Kwan's would have looked like except with an extra spin and a spiral sequence as opposed to a one-minute long footwork sequence. I wasn't a fan of that program, to put it mildly, so I think we were spared having to see Kwan take on that dark material that probably played against her strengths (like how that program played against Mao's strengths).
     
  12. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I think Kwan would have done better than Mao with the Bells. It just wasn't Mao's thing. Are we never ever going to see Kwan's Bells? Or is there a bootleg recording lurking somewhere...
     
  13. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    I disagree. I thought that was a beautiful program for Mao and very underappreciated, even if her final finishes at all competitions that year was the correct ones. I think she did a better job with it than Kwan would have. I dont think it would have been a Kwan type program at all.
     
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I dunno. Maybe Bells could have been like The Red Violin or Lamente d'Ariane. Kwan performed those programs well. I think Kwan does pretty well with drama and dark themes, now that I think about it. Mao seems to only really do with with balletic, lyrical pieces. Her Sochi Rach performance (that I would have placed first) worked because of the execution of elements and the emotion after that SP performance. I don't know if Mao really succeeded with Bells because I never bought her ability to express the dark music.
     
  15. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Kwan performed well to Rach.
     
  16. Clay

    Clay Active Member

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    I think I have about 5 seconds of the opening......
    Someone should ask Kwan now that she has twitter. Maybe I'll get up the nerve someday...

    NBC has the program because they filmed a fluff piece for 2006.
     
  17. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Cough it up, NBC, put it on youtube.
     
  18. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Is it speculation that Kwan's '06 and Asada's '10 LP programs were the same? Or is it a fact? Could it have been different cuts of the same music?
     
  19. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Has to be different cuts of the music. There is no way Kwan, even with how she appeared to be feeling about her skating, would have skated to something that dark.
     
  20. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    Well Jeff Buttle who trained with her at the time confirmed that it was an instrumental type version of it (like Mao's and not like the piano version he did for his SP the year prior). That's about all he said, it was in a TSL interview.

    :watch:
     
  21. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

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    Well it was Kwan who failed to tag a few 2toes after her popped jumps in the QR or hold her spirals 2 seconds longer or hold her spins just a fraction more in all 3 phases of the competition... It wasn't just about the popped jumps or the injury, it was the lack of COP mindset that cost her a lot of easy points.

    She could do the acceleration feature and the difficult variation feature (catchfoot, or clasping her arms behind her back while spinning) for level 3.

    Were you at MKF then? I don't remember much other than description of a 2axel landing right into an upright catch spin.

    That. I mean, the short wasn't so hot. :shuffle: She did well to dark music (Red Violin was great) but that kind of monotonous music usually needs a lot of exposure and warming up to before it could work, I don't think many people would like it being debuted in Turin.
     
  22. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    Kostner was way undermarked at the 2005 worlds. Her short program was by far the best, given her triple-triple and overall quality, Sasha's small mistakes and Irina's big ones, but she was placed 4th. A total joke. Had the scoring been fair nobody would even talk about Kwan's qualifying round. Kostner would have won atleast the bronze easily anyway. Yet Marco thinks she would have medalled in a well skated 2006 Olympics (over Shizuka who got 125 for only 5 triples no less) when she barely medalled skating her best in the splatfest 2005 worlds, LOL!
     
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think Kostner may have gotten the reputation, and with the Olympics being in Italy, it doesn't seem so unreasonable.
     
  24. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Although the IJS was supposedly used at 2005 Worlds and 2006 Olympics, really the system was more used like the 6.0 system. Some claimed it was because the judges were slow to adapt, the ISUs references were garbage, it was fairer to older skaters, or some combination. In light Sochiflation, I don't know what to think.
     
  25. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Although the IJS was supposedly used at 2005 Worlds and 2006 Olympics, really the results were more like 6.0 system results. Some might claimed it was because the judges were slow to adapt, the ISUs references were garbage, it was fairer to older skaters, or some combination. In light of Sochiflation, I don't know what to think.

    This does not change that Kostner had that horrid break in her choreography before every 3F back then.
     
  26. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    The Olympics being in Italy sure didnt help the other Italian skaters. The defending Olympic bronze medalists came back and came 7th or 8th in a weak field where one of the top teams WD.

    She may have had some reputation boost after her bronze at the 2005 worlds which would translate to higher scores she got there if she had built off that, but she didnt, and had done nothing in the 05-06 season apart from a respectable bronze at Europeans below Sokolova. I dont remember much hype about her going into the Games, despite being the world bronze medalist in Italy. She wasnt talked up as one of the favorites at all.

    Either way she certainly wasnt overscored at the 2005 worlds, and in fact was underscored. Especialy in the short program. She was placed 4th for the 1st place short program. Had the judges seen Irina's face and body doing that skate at that event, the score would be over 70.
     
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but Fusar-Poli/Margaglio placed first in that compulsory dance. Plus, there's a difference between a half-technically-deficient team making a comeback four years after their last international competition competing in untested waters (and having never skated under IJS) and Carolina Kostner who was a young skater capable of 3/3s and had past success with IJS. Besides, FP/M placed 6th, not 7th-8th (although they were helped by the WD of Dubriel/Lauzon).

    I'm not saying Kostner would have won gold, but she did receive a great bit of hype, and people were wondering if she was in a upward trajectory after Europeans. And if there's a skater good enough to give the benefit-of-doubt to based on home crowd reactions and skill, then that skater may (not will) get that benefit-of-doubt.
     
  28. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    F-P&M have the same type of achievements as Kostner even now many years later at the end of Kostner's long career (1 world title only, Olympic bronze) so even if they arent your favorite I think calling them deficient is somewhat harsh.

    I agree Kostner could have done well in Turin if she skated well since the event was a splatfest. I mean we are considering a way past her prime Kwan possibly winning gold had she skated her best, with how the event went down, so why not hometown girl and world medalist Kostner. What I am disagreeing with is that she would have stood up in a well skated event, let alone beaten Arakawa skating her best (which is way better than how she skated in easily winning the OGM) as was suggested on another thread. I think it is clear unless Asada was there, which was never going to happen with the rules so the speculation on her is stupid anyway; a well skated event was 100% certain to have a podium of Slutskaya, Cohen, and Arakawa in whatever order, and nobody else would have had a shot to break in. I would argue based on her practices, and how they were scored for what they did, it would be Shizuka on top in that case and not Irina (or Sasha) as most seem to still insist, but we will never know. Still there is definitely no indication Kostner could have come close to those skaters skating their best, how they skated in Turin sure it would be possible. Kostner was a very long way from the skater she is today, and she wasnt a judges favorite yet either (well if she ever became that, it seems a silly myth that developed over the years, especialy being given bronze when she arguably deserved gold at the recent Olympics). It is too bad she did not capatilize on the dissapointing event by skating her best and winning a silver or gold on home ice. It would have brought a great moment on Italian ice to the otherwise lackluster figure skating event (and not just the ladies). In hindsight as bizarre as it is, that would have been her best chance at the Oly gold too, as it is clear she could have never beaten Kim in 2010 or Putinkova (aka the combination of Adelina's fine performances and Vladimir Putin's millions of a fixed outcome) in 2014.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think I'm a little colored by Adelina Sotnikova's win in Sochi (and a bit by Hughes' win in SLC). I always thought the judges would be a bit conservative and not give the Olympic title to someone who had no big titles to show for it beforehand. But then Adelina skated lights out and got the gold. Maybe I'm projecting Sochi into Torino. I do think Carolina Kostner (not my favorite skater at the time, but is one of my favorite skaters of all-time now) had a lot to work on, but really did have the important technical basics to score well even if 2005 Worlds didn't quite show that despite her bronze by default.
     
  30. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    Well if Kostner skated truly great, with how the event was skated, yeah she probably would have won gold, and nobody would have complained about it. I was talking the hypothetical of a very well skated event, which is entirely different.

    Italy is not Russia though in political power in skating, the Olympics, or anything. Nobody is, but Italy doesnt even come close. Not even with the ISU president (a corrupt dictator in his own right) being from there. Italy would never be able to pull off the kind of highway robbery Russia did in Sochi. Fraudquanta even cares about Russians before his own, look how he defends Adelina beating Kostner's better overall skating and performances by 8 points in his comments on the event. He was also irate when F-P&M were pushed down by the judges in favor of better teams like A&P and B&K at the grand prix final, but didnt say anything when Lobacheva & Averbuhk were given a pretty clear and not so sublte push over them at the Olympics (even if in the end they deserved to beat the Italians with how both skated the OD and FD there).