Hospital Nurse Who Took Kate Hoax Call Found Dead

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by lurvylurker, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Other than a news story this morning on the show being canceled and a brief clip of the DJ's tearful interview it's gone from US news. You're probably seeing a lot more of it over there.
  2. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    If I had to guess I would say that nurse 1 put the call through thinking nurse 2 would know how to vett it. Nurse 2 probably assumed that nurse 1 had verified the caller. It doesn't sound like the information nurse 2 gave out greatly upset the royals or the hospital. It only became a big deal when the DJ's publicized it. Did they give out the nurse's name, or did the press put it out there?

    The first I heard of this story was when they found her dead. Was it a big story in Britain? The DJs were in Australia.
  3. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    It was just reported on UK news that the hospital have claimed that neither their management nor the company responsible for media enquiries has spoken to the radio station regarding this matter. So clearly different sides to the story there. However as I understand it, the Australian law requires permission to be granted before broadcasting a hoax call. It wasn't given, no matter how many times they tried to ring so I don't really see the point of them trying to raise this as some kind of defence.
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    ITA. First of all, it was invasion of privacy, using a lie. An innocent person became a victim, even though they did not intend it to end that way. For that alone they should lose their license- JMO, but it depends on the law in their country. The DJs deserve all the criticism they are getting, and IMO they deserve to be fired. The radio station that allowed pranks has to bear some responsibility too. The death threats are wrong, however. I don't see how the nurses were at fault. The DJs claimed that their accents were so bad that they were surprised the call was put through. They can't blame the nurses for not understanding the difference between good vs bad imitations of different accents.
  5. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    You never know how someone, especially a total stranger, is going to react to any situation, but you can't go through life walking on eggshells around everybody. Look at the April Fools' threads that pop up at FSU every April? Don't you think it's possible that someone could've passed out - or worse - after opening one of those threads? It's possible; Anything can happen. Before the death of the nurse, I think most people thought the radio prank was harmless, even amusing, but now they're saying it's wrong, mean-spirited, etc. If the prank was 'wrong' then it should've been called out as wrong before the nurse's death and not only after.
  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    From the story I read on CNN, there were more negative comments than positive ones about the prank BEFORE the nurse's death. I will look for the link and post it here.

    I don't agree with your comparison with fsu. This board is not a public thing like a radio station, and we don't have very famous people, like the British royalties, here- AFAIK (correct me if I am wrong :) )

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/10/world/europe/uk-royal-hospital-death/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

    From the article:

    "Off the air, Greig and Christian tweeted about the practical joke on Thursday and earlier Friday, promising "more on the #royalprank." The pair's Twitter accounts were taken down late Friday.

    Some listeners applauded the prank, like one who identified himself as Guido on the station's Facebook page and wrote, "It is only a joke people! it was great i love it!!!"

    Others were outraged, with negative comments outnumbering positive ones on 2DayFM's Facebook page even before the nurse's death.

    "Your stunt was done at a time in this country where there is paranoia about the intrusion of the media into people's lives," Gary Slenders wrote. "I know you will say it is harmless fun, the management of 2DayFM will say that it won't happen again, but this is exactly where the phone hacking scandal started"
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  7. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Uh, no.
  8. *Jen*

    *Jen* Well-Known Member

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    I think it's bigger in Australia, to be honest.
  9. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    What I think is that you are like a dog with a bone and you won't give up until everyone either agrees with you or shuts up. But your characterization of what happened is not the same as mine and it won't be mine no matter how many times you repeat yourself.
  10. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I am curious to know who you believe was bullied. I agree that this hoax was wrong and inexcusable. However, I don't think they ever actually bullied or mocked the nurse who took her own life. They did something awesomely stupid and ignorant. It became cruel, but I don't believe they can be responsible for another person's choices.

    I think they should be fired and I think the radio station should be penalized, in some way.

    This is such a sad thing :(
  11. leesaleesa

    leesaleesa New Member

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    I don't know the laws regarding PHI in England, but in the U.S., if I were to call your insurance or health care providers to get your information, the person who is in the wrong is the person who gives out the information. The person who obtains the information has legally done nothing wrong, unless they share this information, which is in effect what the DJ's did by broadcasting the stunt. Both parties can be held liable for not protecting the patient's information.
  12. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    In her culture a brother would know how she must have felt, whether she actually told him or not. You are dealing with a different culture where every letter of the alphabet is not shredded and analyzed. I tend to believe the brother for her state of mind, because he knows the culture. I assume her husband knows too but he may be too traumatized to talk about it.
  13. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    He obviously didn't know she was fragile enough that this would make her kill herself. Hindsight is 20/20, it's easy to blame this as the trigger, it may have been, but I don't believe this one isolated incident is the sole reason she committed suicide. Mentally stable people don't commit suicide. I've both found a friend who committed suicide, and been the last person to speak to another friend before she did the same. It's easy to want to blame, but these people had plenty of options to seek help, and loving families they left behind, but it wasn't enough for them. I honestly believe that there were signs for one of them, and we read them, but she still chose to kill herself and not get help. For the other, I didn't see any signs; no one did. I knew a sensitive person, but I was surprised. But we don't blame anyone - she didn't give us signs, she didn't ask for help. Even in hindsight, I can't see any signs. I believe both were mentally unstable, and I don't believe it's a sudden decision, but a culmination of things. Some people just keep things bottled up. It's much easily to "know" things once someone has died - but how you can state someone "would know how she felt" because he's her brother - do you really think in Indian culture, brothers know all? That's weird. No one ever knows completely how another person feels.

    This says what the radio station is doing to stop this from happening again. It sounds like hospital is doing nothing, no counselling for the family, no public declaration that the correct people will be manning the phones, or that nurses and the hospital will learn not to reveal confidential information so easily, and put systems in place to stop this from happening. The radio station, no doubt, has plenty to learn from this situation, but so does the hospital.
  14. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    I guess your definition of bullying differs from mine. I agree, it's a very sad thing.
  15. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    What's yours?
  16. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Doing anything that is intended to humiliate or embarrass someone else.

    Is this sort of thing common in Australia?
  17. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    Your definition of bullying is what I would define as mean. Doing it over and over would make it bullying.

    I guess it depends on what you consider common; I only listen to Australian radio for a couple of weeks a year and never hear them - but that may also be because I don't listen to these kinds of stations, or because it's Christmas. I don't remember hearing them when I lived there, but again, I don't listen to these kinds of stations. I barely listen to commercial radio.
  18. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Do it once to one person or do it 20 times to 20 people-I call it bullying. You disagree and I'm okay with that but this thread is getting very tiresome so I'll drop out. :)
  19. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    Doing it 20 times to 20 people makes you a bully, but it doesn't make the 20 people victims of bullying. Do it to the same person 20 times and you're a bully and that person is being bullied. It's the habitual behaviour given to or from a person that makes it different. Mean behaviour is sometimes just that, mean.
  20. duane

    duane New Member

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    The purpose of a practical joke is to gets laughs over someone's fear, embarrassment or humiliation, so anyone who's ever played one is a bully.
  21. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    People embarrass each other in fun all the time - parents showing embarrassing photos at a 21st birthday party etc. They're not bullies, even though their intent is to embarrass. I don't like these sort of things either, personally, but I know plenty of people who, once they got over the initial embarrassment, also thought it was funny.
  22. DAngel

    DAngel Active Member

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    No reply equals consent?
  23. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Sure, why not? It might as well be.
  24. jeffisjeff

    jeffisjeff Well-Known Member

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    I've been told that school districts often have a "more than once" requirement when defining bullying.
  25. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    It's also the dictionary definition (not more than once, but habitual).
  26. duane

    duane New Member

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    Exactly. If "doing anything that is intended to embarrass or humiliate someone" is bullying (which I don't agree with), then nearly everyone is guilty is bullying.
  27. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    At least in Merriam-Webster, "habitual" is in the definition of bully as a noun, not in the definition of the verb "bully". American Heritage makes the same distinction.

    I don't really think that's the righ word to describe what the dj's did, but at least these dictionary definitions don't require habitual behavior for an act to be bullying, but do for a person to be characterized as a bully.
  28. bek

    bek Guest

    And how much of this is broadcasted in front of a worldwide audience? One can mention to that pranking your friend-who you know. Well you also tend to know what that person can or cannot handle. Same with your child.

    These DJs didn't know the nurses what type of pranks they could or couldn't handle. Not to mention their were real world consquences to these nursers for this prank.

    So I'm sorry there's a big difference between parents showing embarrassing pictures and this.

    And when does it become bullying-well I think that depends on the person who is being pranked/bullied.
  29. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    All the definitions I read included words like intimidate. Here's an example:

    I don't see anything like this happening here. The DJs didn't intimidate or force anyone. As far as I can tell, they didn't even cajole.

    I hope we're not going to label everything we don't like as bullying now. I think it minimizes real bullying to use it describe things like this.
  30. duane

    duane New Member

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    I think if people want to "blame" anyone for this woman's death, blame the Indian culture where it is ingrained in little girls' head from day one that they are not to bring "shame" to the family. Clearly she erred in transferring the call, and though the hospital said she was not going to be fired, surely some kind of action (a verbal reprimand? Threat of being demoted or transferred?) was discussed. Perhaps this "shame" caused her to believe suicide was the only option.

    But again, it's not even yet official that she committed suicide.
  31. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

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    I think it was thoughtless as Kate was sick and did not need to be bothered with this sort of nonsense and that it put the two nurses in a bad position. But I don't believe these two people ever thought they were hurting anyone when they pulled this prank. Conversely one of my mother's friends said her daughter was given flowers and asked to prom and then stood up. She was not popular and this was done as a "prank." It was intentionally cruel. I think there's a difference.
  32. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I find it difficult to believe that this event alone would cause a person to commit suicide. It seems to me a person would have to be depressed or suicidal for this to push him or her over the edge. She made an honest mistake.
  33. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    And it's interesting that her brother is the one who said she died in shame. How did he know she thought that what she did was shameful? He doesn't ever say himself that he disagrees with that. Maybe he's the one who thinks what she did was shameful, and she knew that he'd think that way. That's not dying in shame, that's dying in fear. We'll never know the reason she decided to kill herself, but I don't think this was the sole cause.

    It's really disappointing that this hospital has directed all of the outrage outwards, without looking inwards at what they could have done, and now can do, to help prevent things like this happening again. I hope this comes soon.
  34. *Jen*

    *Jen* Well-Known Member

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    Yes. It's one of the things I totally despise about it and one of the (many) reasons I left. It would be easier to miss my birth place if it wasn't such a constant source of embarrassment... :shuffle: But it isn't considered bullying, which is why it happens so often.

    Oh dear. We're on to semantics :lol:

    We're never going to agree. We all have different points of view, and if we pull up Australian and British dictionaries we may well get other definitions of bullying again.

    Speaking of though - the reaction of twitter users and the Daily Mail to the interview. They were being criticised for being silent, now criticised for speaking. Criticised to giving an interview and not a press conference, for crying, and even thought it was clearly stated they weren't being paid, somehow that rumour is going around too? :confused:
  35. bek

    bek Guest

    But this type of suicide DOES happen in India. Not every society feels the same way. If you are from a society that actively encourages suicide when shame has been brought upon your employer, family etc... Well.. And Angelskates the fact that her brother said it this way suggests this is the case.

    Not every society is like India with hahahaha! I fooled you. Some societies hold saving face and keeping honor to be the most important things.

    Apparently she was very devout Catholic. So unfortunately it may be culture winning out over religion...
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2012
  36. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Does it? Do you have any sources or information to back this up? Of the many different cultures and discussions of suicide, bringing shame to your employer is not one that i'd ordinarily associate with Indian culture.
  37. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    You may consider it semantics but I do think it's important that when there are cases of obvious bullying (like Cachoo's prom example or the recent example in the news about the school deliberately voting an unpopular girl onto prom court as a joke), the situation isn't minimized because it doesn't happen to the victim repeatedly.

    However, as I indicated, I don't consider this bullying of the nurses. I think it's more of a thoughtless indifference to others, which is what I think most practical jokes are. The joker doesn't really care what the impact is on the brunt of the joke;. I'm quite certain the DJ's didn't expect any sort of serious consequences but I doubt they thought about whether the people answering the phone would look foolish at their jobs.
  38. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    Here are some other, non-US, definitions, since this occurred in Australia and the UK:

    NSW Public Schools: http://www.schools.nsw.edu.au/studentsupport/bullying/definition/index.php

    KidSpot Australia, who use the National Centre Against Bullying definition: http://www.kidspot.com.au/schoolzone/Bullying-Definitions-of-bullying 4064 395 article.htm (have a look at what they emphasise bullying isn't as well)

    Definition of workplace bullying from the Australian Human Rights Commission: http://humanrights.gov.au/info_for_employers/fact/workplace.html

    Act Against Bullying (UK): http://www.actagainstbullying.org/advice/Parents/parent_to_parent.htm

    Health and Safety Exectutive (UK): http://www.hse.gov.uk/stress/furtheradvice/bullyingindividuals.htm

    All use words like persistent, repeated, over time.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  39. *Jen*

    *Jen* Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say it was. I didn't comment at all on it, apart from to say that the definitions will vary according to the source. My point was that the definitions may not be helpful, not that they minimise the situation in any way.

    This came up at my work yesterday. The point is, not every Indian nurse in that position would have reacted by committing suicide. Culture may be an influence, but it's not the overwhelming reason.

    Again, it comes back to her mental state prior to this. This may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but take it from someone who lost a friend to suicide: it was not the only reason. People can be good at hiding their feelings. A close friend lost a friend to suicide last week, and it came as a total shock to absolutely everyone, including his partner and family. They saw him every day. You can't always see it coming. It's just tragic.

    In other news, the station is donating money to the family
  40. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    I was merely responding to your original post that indicated "habitual" was part of "the dictionary definition" of bullying. As your post indicates, there are a variety of definitions applied for different purposes and the writer in the Act Against Bullying link actually mentions that "There are obviously as many definitions as there are opinions" and then proceeds to list one possible definition.

    As I've mentioned already, I don't consider what the dj's did "bullying" but I understand that others might and I don't think there is one dictionary definition that invalidates their opinion. As Jen mentioned, people have a variety of opinions of this situation and perhaps one lesson from this incident is a reminder that we can't assume people will see things the same way and to try to be thoughtful of how actions can impact others - although I don't think anyone imagined this result from the original call.

    ETA:
    - Sorry Jen, I must have misunderstood your reference to semantics. Nice gesture by the station to make a substantial donation for the family. As I mentioned above, I doubt even most people who thought the call was inappropriate imagined this outcome.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012