Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Nov 2, 2011.
He took his nice pill today!!!
Don't hold back, Phil…tell us how you really feel
Oh goody. More fodder for the Chanflation debates .
OUCH. As much as I don't like to agree with him, I think he does have a point here.
I can't believe I'm saying this about something Phil Hersh wrote, but
And I kind of agree with his comments on Flatt, too. She's had a great career, but it's pretty clear she's peaked and she's got so many more interests and things she wants to accomplish. I think she'd ultimately be happier if she put all of her focus into those.
Oh, what I would give to go out for drinks with Phil Hersh and Marina Anissina!
I'll buy the first round!
It would help to say what the article is about or mention its title in the thread title.
too true, sigh...
1. Performances so far have been sloppy yes, but understanbly given the longer previous season which means skaters have had a shorter break and less time to be comfortable with their programs and tricks.
2./3. Tuktamisheva skates strongly but she doesn't have 'it' yet. As I said in the other thread, too much arms, too little feet. I like Sotnikova better but apparently she is still recovering from an injury? The real battle between the little divas will be GPF and Jr Worlds. (Is Lipnitskaya age-eligible for Jr. Worlds?)
4. I don't understand why everyone is arguing with Math. Comapring to his Worlds skate, all his PCS dropped due to the worse performance, SS, TR and CH were affected less because they are not as much impacted by mistakes, but he was dinged with 0.6 off PE and IN for his mistakes which was pretty significant. If someone is worth a 9.5 when great, he doesn't suddenly become a 7 after 2 falls. The same is true under 6.0 - I am thinking Kwan's 1997 Nationals skate.
5. Very excited about Hanyu and Abbott. I unfortunately feel the same about Abbott and Oda - the moment has passed for their break-through. They are nice skaters which will keep improving but will probably never medal at Worlds let alone contend for titles. Interesting that if Dornbush gets a silver in China, he will still be in the running for GPF.
6. Nagasu has gone to that Cohen stage where, despite all the talent and wow factors in the world, a strong skate with 1 mistake or less is already a cause for celebration. USA needs its Kwan back.
7. Czisny's uneven performance is to be expected given the much more ambitious content. I actually really like her short but find a large part of her long to be extremely monotonous and boring.
8. If Flatt had rightfully bowed out during GP assignment stage, who would have been the US lady next in line to receive GP assignments? I am going to be so mad if it is Cesario (because it means she didn't have to be stuck in JGP, which also means Gracie Gold would have had another assignment).
It's beyond hope to think that Hersh, a journalist, might actually read the PCS criteria for skating skills.
Adelina didn't do her big combos but I thought everything else jump wise looked pretty good. Not necessarily sold on the programs, but it doesn't look like Adelina's lets say not able to do the jumps or anything like that. Adelina would do well without those 3/3s. She has other things.
I hardly thought this worst case ever in Chan's PCS myself. It was good to see he wasn't given too much of an advantage over the others. However one could point out, if a skater is stumbling over footwork/choregraphy, shouldn't that kind of affect the S/S score just a little. Because it suggests a bit out of controlness. Even if its due to their difficulty. I felt the same with Kostner vs Czisny in the short (and Kostner for long periods of time). Normally Kostner's SS are better, but when Kostner's out of control a bit the marks maybe deserve to be done, vs someone who was in full control. I think in general the main problem is the concept of a set marks that never change, even based on the performance.
Its an insult IMO to Cohen to compare Nagasu to her. Say what you will about Sasha, but Sasha never gave up on a performance and was pretty consistent throughout. Sasha was never a good/great jumper and probably never had it in her to go completely clean. But she always put in valient efforts and skated well enough to medal. Not to mention Sasha always showed up in shape/fit. There was no one day Sasha lands 6 gorgeous triples performances light out, next week Sasha performs like a robot (with underrotated jumps one could argue Mirai was kindly judged) etc with Cohen.
I'm not saying that Sasha didn't have her issues, she did it seems. But I think USFSA and the ISU wishes Nagasu was like Sasha.
Yes, exactly- with all their similarities (silly errors, aggravating their respective fans), that's a MAJOR difference between the two skaters. Cohen, as mentioned, rarely gave up on a performance after making a mistake. I keep saying Nagasu needs to watch (and re-watch) Cohen's 2006 Oly FS and learn that it's not completely over yet after you fall. It's not so much the mistakes that's killing Nagasu as it is her attitude afterward. She stops performing and that throws more points away- likely even more than the mistake itself. Hard to believe Carroll has not pounded that fact into her (or if he has, why she hasn't listened even after seeing Czisny hang onto a win after her mistake-filled FS)
That said, Nagasu is facing a stronger overall competitive field (IMO) than Cohen did...I bet if the latter came up in this era, she wouldn't have any medals either...(yes, I know I'm asking for it on that comment, but based on her showing at 2010 Nats...)
"Queen Tu(k)t" - Phil has christened Liza. LOVE IT!!!
I wasn't so much comparing their attack mode at all, just how they live up to their hype.
They were both hyped to be the next best thing and "would be unbeatable if clean". And then they just never were. And instead of waiting for them to become the next Kwan and to shine every time they skate, fans have slowly come to their senses and understood that them shining or skating clean is more of an exception than a rule.
i agree with the Hersh article, on several points --except one
i am like fellow people who states rachel should decide herself when to quit and not listen to us, media, fans, but herself. she herself only knows what she want.
d/w and v/m is going to make it hard for everyone else to beat them.
the way both of them are going it will be fun to watch and see how the others play out like russian teams, p/b, shibs, w/p , italian team
elizaveta might need a bit more sparkle, but unfortunate so does the U.S. ladies.
as far as patrick chan-the are scoring him the ways they always have-
he has improved in artistry.
Um, Phil? Time to review the ISU criteria for awarding points for skating skills:
Nowhere does it say that falls should affect the SS mark and you know why? Because falls on jumps have their own category where they are marked and it's not part of PCS.
Marking off falls in TES and PCS both would be dinging the skater twice for falls and rather redundant, innit...
The rest of the article is accurate IMO.
Pardon the double post but really, which one of the great champions of Cohen's era would have had medals now? Not even Kwan, certainly not late career Kwan. That's is almost as irrelevant as saying Peggy wouldn't have medals now. The CoP has moved on, the sport has moved on and even this season with the Russian girls coming out party, the sport has moved on yet again.
But I don't think it is redundent. If a skater falls multiple times, it reflects the quality of the performance as a whole IMO, and I think they either need to hit skaters harder for falls on TES. Or they need to start docking them somewhere in the PCS mark. Four fall wins when other good skaters skate well is ridiculous. I'm not saying one fall should knock everyone out. But if Chan had skated like he did a year ago at Skate Canada, at the Olympics and had won, that would have been another huge scandal and would have probably turned the public of the sport forever. Of course in that case the judges I bet would have docked his PCS. But still.
Kindly show me in the criteria for SS where falls on jumps should be counted. Jumps have their own dedicated section: they already dock them for falls in TES. Why should they be docked twice?
For someone like Mirai who didn't fall in her SC free-skate, should her PCS be stellar? She didn't fall, you know.
We have two different sections to address two different aspects of skating for a reason. What ISU should or should not be doing in your opinion is not relevant.
I never said that falls alone should affect PCS did I. And maybe falls (accept for lets say on footwork choregraphy) on jumps shouldn't affect SS. But I don't think the system we have currently punishes errors enough. I'm sorry but multiple falls have a cumulative effect.
Mirai did other things in her program that deserved to lose PCS. She was off the music, didn't attempt to perform etc. I'd give Wagner with a fall higher PCS too. Its not about just falls for me, never was. But really messy programs are really messy programs and should not be rewarded. And I'm sorry I'm quite convinced in this system that if your a top skater, you can absolutely get away with being very messy. Actual execution has to count. You can't have half of the total score being predetermined.
Chan fell on a QUAD.. the most difficult element the men are attempting, and a fluke fall on footwork which may or may not have been caused by a rut or sequin on the ice. How do these two falls make his skating skills less worthy?
I don't have a problem with the quad fall. But Chan falls on footwork quite a bit in comparision to others of course because his stuff is hard but still, and there's no proof that it was a rut. I'm not saying his skating skills should be significantly low. But 9.5 was a little high. (maybe 8s would have been more appropriate Still would have given Fernandez lower SS than Chan.) But one could argue that falls footwork are penalized less than falls on jumps.
I don't really have a problem so much with Chan's scores this Skate Canada. A little high but overall okay. I thought Fernandez's PCS were high too. So its not only Patricks PCS were high this time which makes it much more platable.
And they do not.
OK, lets have a third section: bek's punishment for falls. Public lashing is optional.
Where is "messy program" in the rules? I seem to have missed it.
So to summarize.....ice dancing is now interesting to His Philness, so too bad for all those hacks who were world champions over the last three decades, who were clearly not "compelling" enough to catch his mighty attention. So skaters like Torvill and Dean obviously sucked and were boring to watch as well.
And he was right about how Rachael Flatt should quit, and her face at the end of the program proved that everyone else was wrong
Get over yourself, Phil.
It sounds like it's about "rambling" which makes a topic hard.
Besides it's Hersh... Does it really matter what he says, at least some posters will be upset (If he said that the sun rose this morning some posters would object on the very premise that "if it's Hersh it must be wrong" ) I actually never read his articles but love the of these thread
I never said it was in the rules. Although I say why create a mark name it Performance/Execution and say execution doesn't matter.
What I said is that messiness now matters little in IJS it seems. And I don't like it and I'm not the only one who doesn't like it..And its not like I only say that for the skaters I don't like, and not for the skaters I do like. I'm not one who thinks the program must be clean, on all occasions either. Or the KVPs should always win when they stay upright but it would be nice to see a balance. I'm hopeful that Fernandez PCS vs Chans are indication that the judges will let other GOOD skaters beat Chan, if Chan makes a lot of major errors, and the others are great. Which is a welcome relief.
And I thought Patricks program was gorgeous, overall at this years Skate Canada, and don't have a problem with the win. Saying maybe the PCS should be a little lower is hardly that bad.
Thank you. I'd always wondered what people meant by "greater punishment for falls."
Takahashi fell on his 4F<< and got 3.20 points, less a 1.00 point deduction, for a net score of 2.20. The base value of a fully rotated 4F is 11.8.
A similar fall on 2F<< would, I believe, leave the skater with a negative net score on the element, once the deduction for the fall is considered.
Under 6.0, a jump with a fall was supposed to count for nothing, and, at least in a Free Skate, the skater could have attempted the jump again. Under CoP, this is effectively impossible, unless the skater has a planned flip combo or is willing to sacrifice another jumping pass.
And some skaters weren't "punished" much or even at all for falls, at least in the Free Skate, where they would occasionally fall and still get 5.9's and 6.0's -- even on the first mark.
I'm really not sure how skaters could receive "greater punishment for falls" unless the ISU scrapped CoP (or implemented IceAlisa's suggestion).
Fans, including bek, said Patrick's LP was gorgeous. What made it gorgeous?
Why, it was the intricacy of the transitions, the emotion and style, expression, the choreography that went with the music and executed so well and the edging, the beautiful use of the blade, multi-directional and one-foot skating that Patrick is so famous for.
Well, if it isn't the almost verbatim criteria for PCS! If those elements were gorgeous, why shouldn't his PCS be?
Because he still had some pretty big errors... I never said his PCS shouldn't have been high. Just not as high as they would be with a clean skate. I.e a 9.5 for SS with 2 falls maybe 8.5 (a bit better. Still a HUGE score for skating skills) what do you give him when he skates perfectly clean with no falls/stumbles?
I don't have so much issues with Chan's PCS this time because in relation to others they weren't that bad. I'd have given Fernandez lower PCS too and felt mayber Fernandez was a bit high in relation to Patrick and Daisuke (to be frank about it)
If skaters know they can with huge amounts of errors because they get this huge PCS lead over everyone else, than whats to stop them from overloading their programs or in contrast not trying technical difficult at all.
Once again the actual skate has to matter and if 1/2 of the score is preset why watch?
Its not like I'm saying Patrick deserved low scores for PCS when he falls a lot. I'm saying maybe when he falls a lot he shouldn't be getting SKY HIGH PCS. That maybe sky high PCS should be saved for great performances. And I don't think anyone would say falling 3 times in one program a la Skate Canada last year was a Great performance.
And yes 6.0 had its issues. But in the short program they'd have forced the judges to completely take someone out after 3 falls. And I don't think the judges would truly be able to justify putting a skate with 3 falls over the other, without way more criticism. I think 6.0 was too subjective but it had its points. IMO.
I would have given Daisuke the Olympic title. I'm not someone whose like you fall thats immediately it. I just draw the line at multiple ones.
What do falls on jumps have to do with skating skills again?
Because, per current ISU rules, falls on jumps are not reflected in the PCS and specifically SS scores. They are reflected in the TES section of the score. What part of this do you find confusing?