Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Hedwig, Apr 18, 2011.
LOL.... dirteh mouth? clean it up with new Orbitz gum.
335th might have been a TINY exaggeration.
Apart from these books I only reread Harry Potter a few times.
And ITA about HP. I loved that I "grew up" with the series, meaning that I saw it unfold slowly and could reread in between and have my own theories. The last book came much too soon.
But there I also wasn't too worried about the author dying before she finished writing...
So I watched the latest episode. I love the actor Peter Dinklage(plays Tyrion Lannister). Lady Stark, I like her NOT!.
I'm with you Topaz, I still dislike Lady Stark. And the way she treated John Snow in the book when he went to see little broken Bran was just nasty.
As far as Harry Potter goes, I was never a Ginny fan, so the ending was NOT my favorite either. It's bad when you're rooting for a death eater to take her out and leave the twins alone.
Catelyn Stark is one of my most hated characters in the series.
She is not really nasty but she is often stupid, acts stupid and brings people to do stupid things (sometimes by manipulating them) she thinks are clever.
Like taking Tyrion captive. Or even persuading Ned to go to King's Landing. And she is always so bloody self-righteous when she does it like she is the only one who can think. \rant over
How can one not be a Ginny fan? I loved her snarky and independant character.
I am really surprised at all the Catelyn Stark hate here. I guess I am not seeing/reading what the rest of you are; I like her just fine. There are many more characters in this series who are a lot worse than she is.
I was annoyed with her at the beginning, but I think given where she lives and who she has to deal with, being a bit over the top with strength is better than being taken advantage of and being rolled.
Oh there definitely are characters who are worse. But with them I know from the beginning that they are bad. Catelyn is selfish and bad in her own way while at the same time thinking and being good and honorable.
I just don't find her to be selfish or bad; selfish and bad are just about the last two words I would ever think of in connection with her. I think she is in a tough position where she has to make hard decisions based on inadequate information. She makes choices and the choices don't always turn out as hoped, but I find her to be a decent person underneath it all. If anything, I find Ned Stark to be a lot more culpable; he's been married to her for 15 years and he has not taken her into his confidence about the one thing of paramount importance to both of them (for different reasons) - who, really, is Jon Snow? Then when Catelyn is unloving to Jon and treats him harshly, Ned just looks the other way and ignores the whole thing. Sorry, but the buck stops with St. Ned and the problems flow from his making, not from Catelyn's.
Look on the bright side, maybe you'll like throat-slit Zombie!Catelyn better...
As far as Jon, Danerys, Tyrion, and Arya, making it go--dunno about Arya, the Imp may go in a heroic sacrifice but I can't see him getting wiped out for no reason, and I may be wrong but I have the odd feeling Jon and Dany are going to come out all right and in a fairly important place. For those catching up on the books, I suspect Sansa might as well if she learns from Littlefinger and becomes as much of a magnificent bastard as he is.
Also still speculating: Jon's not Ned Stark's, I'm fairly sure on that, but who knows at this point.
I personally couldn't stand Ginny, so I'm right there with you.
She was one of many factors that totally killed the magic of the series for me. Then again, I thought the whole thing went downhill after Book5, so I can hardly blame my entire disappointment on her.
As for GoT, I have started reading the first book (for the first time ever ), and I'm really surprised how young the characters are in the books compared to the show. Jon is only 14!
And I'm now a little disappointed the show decided to age most of the characters up, as I personally think it's a million times more interesting and dramatically fulfilling to read these characters as adolescents--especially in this world.
I find Jon, for example, so much more compelling and...vulnerable?...in the books simply because he's still a boy trying to be man.
The actor in the show looks 25 at least, so they've had to "mature" some of his actions/reactions in some key scenes, and in the context of the books, I think you lose something really important and special about the character.
This is all 20/20 hindsight, of course. I thought the show was perfect as is, but naturally the books (as they do in most cases) add so much more.
I wouldn't say the actor in the show looks 25 personally, I'd say at least 19-20 though. He has managed to retain some youthful naivete
The thing about aging the characters for the show-I reconciled myself with it. Many of the "underage" characters in books have sex; it would just not be possible for HBO to film it if they stayed true to the actual ages. And once you age the young, you have to age the older generation.
In the books everybody is soooo young. Tyrion is only 24, I think; Sercei and Jamie, Ned and Catelyn around 33.
It is also mentioned in the books that people in their 40ies and 50ies are considered old in that world. It's very Middle- Ages with some magic (and I love that realistic aspect of the books)
That's one reason for aging the characters. Another has to do with child labor laws: how many hours a day they can film, how many minders and tutors you have to have on set for them, etc. Another is finding child actors who can actually act at that age and do the work.
There really was no choice but to age everyone up.
I am soooo loving this book. Some of my questions have been answered while others have popped up. It will be painful to wait for the last two books but I hope the success of the tv series will inspire the author to finish the series. Maybe in time I hope we can also have a prequel novel. There certainly seems to be enough background material for one.
Just caught up on all the episodes. The horsie lord is quite Great Stallion indeed. I haven't read the books yet--saving that for summer, but I'll be honest--I'll probably imagine them older in my head. I don't care how accurate it is, I don't want to read about kids 14/15 in those situations, and 13 year olds getting married.*
What I love about this series so far is that every villain has a redeeming feature, except maybe Joffery, and every good guy has serious flaws. Even Less Blonde Chris and Cathy and More Blonde Chris. So far, my favorite characters are John Snow, Tyrion, Bran, Horsie Lord, More Blonde Cathy, and Arya.
Like emason, I don't quite get the hate for Catelyn either. Her actions certainly aren't laudable, but they are very human. I can empathize with her and see where she's coming from, especially holding Lord Tyrion. Thinking be damned--she has from her point of view and that time period pretty strong evidence against him, and how ratioinal would you be if you had the opportunity to hold the person you think tried to kill your son? I'd have slaughtered him in that inn had I been Catelyn. I certainly don't find Boromir's actions to be any more noble than hers.
Of the Mostly Good Guys, the one I can't stand is King Robert. If the Less Blondes do him in, well, I won't cry too much. So far, I'm hoping More Blonde Cathy joins forces with Arya and makes them all do their bidding.
Yeah I'm almost thankful I saw the TV show first so that I didn't have to imagine these kids in my head.
Sorry, but my aged gray cells are dying at an alarming rate, and I'm not following you - whom do you mean by Less Blonde Chris and More Blonde Chris?
As for the characters, yes, indeed, this is not a black-and-white, good guys versus bad guys story; this is an all shades of gray story.
Sorry, I think I watched them too quickly in succession and cannot get their name straight. I'm still not sure who belongs to whom, so I've renamed them based on previous knowledge. More/Less Blonde Chris/Cathy is a reference to the VC Andrew series that features the incestuous twins Chris and Cathy who are also blonde. The More Blondes are the ones hanging out with the horse people. The Less Blondes hang out with the fat king and the Starks.
I also don't even want to attempt to spell their names. I guess I could go back and look at this thread, but I didn't want to spoil myself while I decided whether I wanted to add yet another HBO show to my lineup. Since I have decided to watch them AND read the books, henceforth, I'll stop being lazy-cutsy with the names.
No problem, I get it now. Thanks - I've never read VC Andrews so didn't get the connection.
You could call them Platinum and Gold.
About Catelyn: For me she is one of the "good" characters that annoy me. Like Robert does for others. She has severe flaws like the way she treats Jon or the way she manipulates Ned to go to King's Landing (in the books, not the series) because she wants it for her children. But she is not nasty per se in most instances. I just find her often self-righteous when a lot of the bad things that happen have been due to her starting something like sending Ned away or taking the Imp or
I am very very sure that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Therefore Ned couldn't tell anyone who the mother of Jon is. He promised Lyanna on her dying bed that he would protect Jon. Telling anyone that Jon is the natural son of Rhaegar would bring Jon in mortal peril.
Catelyn is one of my least favourite characters.
And I do blame her somewhat for what happened to Robb. She should have not spoken for her son the king but then again that was how things where done long ago and there was no way to know Robb would break his promise. I think part of the reason he married Jayne is because he did not want to sire a bastard. But her reaction when Robb talked about his heir made me hate her even more. I mean does she hate Jon sooo much she would defy her only remaining son's wish to name him heir. But instead would rather a distant relative with little connection with Winterfell as his heir. Such is her hatred of Jon. I hope to read in book five that Robb's will finally reaches Jon and he accepts.
I´m kind of ambivalent with Catelyn
I like her, as I said before, and I thinks she´s brave and a loving mother and has great dignity and sense of duty but some times she seems blindsided and the list of wtf irrational choices she does is impressive. So a good person but very failed and able of surprising cruelty.
But I understand she was aghast when Robb wanted to name Jon his heir, she thinks about her two legitimate daughters (even if counting with Arya alive was wishful thinking) whose rights he´s stripping
Hedwig about Jon
I think the Raeghar+Lyanna theory should be proved right, considering all the hints, but I hope there is some kind of twist, and in fact there was some kind of kidnapping, not because Raeghar was a nasty rapist or something like that but more like a fanatic looking for his prince that was promised and third head of the dragon.
I´d love a prequel, too! All what happened and moved to the War of the Usurper, I love all those characters involved
I believe Ashara Dayne was his mother because of the story little Ned told Arya. But I do believe Lyanna had a child but I do not believe it is Jon. Still hoping to be able to read the last of the books sooner rather than later to see if I am right.
Just took a peek at a few spoilers for Arya, and now I'm excited to read even more of the books . She very well might end up being my favorite character.
I agree with you. There are so many hints about Rhaegar being a good person that him being a rapist seems so out of character. I always thought that there might be a sort of love story between the two as Lyanna didn't seem too enamoured with Robert anyway. At that time love wasn't the reason to marry though.
And I think that Ned was in love with Ashara Dayne but that he had to marry Catelyn after his brother died and then he killed her brother when freeing Lyanna so that was probably the reason she killed herself and Ned would still feel hurt and responsible for her death.
These books have given me some of my more memorable quotes of all time example: (to the best of my memory.)
1. "I have a soft spot for cripples, bastards and broken things."
2. "Never forget who you are, for surely the world won’t. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you"
3. "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."
4. "Stick them with the pointy end"
5. "We're children. We're supposed to be childish."
6. "There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man."
7. "Never believe anything you hear in a song."
8. "Do you have any notion what happens when a city is sacked, Sansa? No, you wouldn’t, would you? All you know of life you learned from singers, and there is such a dearth of good sacking songs."
9. "Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"
10. "My father was winning every battle while your father was hiding under a Casterly Rock!"
I broke down and bought the first four books on Kindle. Cause it's Thursday. I just skip over the ages. It's interesting having for once seen the show of a book first, because I really do picture all the characters saying the lines.
Still in the very beginning on the Episode 1 part of the book, but I love the descriptions of Winterfell, and how they change to suit each character's perception. In Catelyn's part, it really is a cold and blasted, lifeless and grey, but to Bran, it sounds like a jolly good place to be with lots of avenues for mischief making.
Viserys, btw, really is a nasty, deluded little worm.
Some rrreally good news about the show's ratings. :respect: