Have you lost some respect for ladies figure skating as a sport?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Jarrett, Oct 24, 2012.

?

Have you lost some respect for ladies figure skating as a sport?

  1. Yes.

    20 vote(s)
    18.7%
  2. Yes, but I think they will pick it up in the Olympic Season.

    10 vote(s)
    9.3%
  3. No.

    77 vote(s)
    72.0%
  4. It was never a sport in the first place.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,657
    I ask this after seeing Ashley win Skate America getting those scores for those jumps and Carolina winning worlds didn't help. It seems like ladies' skating is going backwards and men's skating is moving upward and onward. In my opinion the ladies are pretty much taking zero risk jump wise and getting rewarded for it and the men are flinging themselves in the air with all of their strength. All I can hope is that with the Russian ladies coming up other skaters will start in increase the technical jump content. I'm just disappointed. :(
  2. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    347
    Well with Yuna back, Lipnitskaya's senior GP debut, and a hopefully injury-free Tuktamysheva, we will see a higher technical level with the ladies. It's amazing to look back and see Midori and Tonya whipping out huge triple axels and a complete set of triples in the early 90s. They were SO ahead of their time. I doubt they plus Kristi, Nancy, etc thought in 1992 that a program with no triple lutz would win a World Championship exactly 20 years later.
  3. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,475
    In terms on technical content yes, Ladies have been so inconsistent the past seasons that they have been playing it safe
    they need to up their game like the men's field
  4. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,482
    I've never lost respect for the ladies event as a sport. I think that's ridiculous. Why don't those who have "lost respect" go out there and try doing what the current ladies are doing on the ice.

    Over the years, I have lost the same interest I used to have in the ladies discipline (but not because I think it isn't a sport because all the ladies are not doing 3-axels and 3/3s). Seriously, it takes awhile for difficult jumps to evolve. Take a good long look back at the sport, and talk to former skaters (like Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamill, Katarina Witt, Charlie Tickner and others), and talk to skating historians like Benjamin Wright, and to the one and only Dick Button! Stop taking the narrow, limited "what have they done for me lately jump-wise" view.

    I certainly do decry the fact that many top ladies (including Kostner and Yu Na) have won leaving out some of the basic jumps, but that is more due to the whack points-gathering system and rules changes that are in place as a result of IJS/ CoP, than anything else. I'm more concerned about the overall quality of athleticism and artistry being displayed by beautifully mature young ladies than I am about seeing young Russian phenoms rattling off 3/3 combos with precociousness but without a mature sensibility, without consistency, and without cohesive and exciting presentation skills. I will put my money on the newly competitive Ashley Wagner, Carolina Kostner of last season, the Christina Gao I saw at SA 2012, Akiko Suzuki, Mao Asada, perhaps Yu Na if she brings new expressiveness to the table along with her great technical abilities, and even Mirai and Alissa if they are able to come back strong with belief in themselves and good programs.

    In the ladies' field, the emphasis is on doing 3/3 combos as the standard of difficulty, just as getting in the quad for men is now more mandatory if you want to reach the podium. Few ladies are able to do 3-axels today, and few could do them in Tonya's and Midori's time. As far as basic jumps being left out of programs, it is due to the scoring system that ladies have been picking and choosing what jumps to include or leave out based on how many points they can rack-up even with leaving out jumps that they are not as comfortable with. If the rules change to prevent that, then it will stop happening.
    l'etoile and (deleted member) like this.
  5. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,385
    I didn't lose respect. I've lost interest, I admit.
    I love Carolina Kostner, because of her beautiful and amazing flow and glide. But not that much other ladies.

    But I have the feeling the difference between men and women was the same in the 80's, when you see Boitano's LP and Witt's LP in 1988 !
  6. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10,239
    I think the technical content just comes and goes in cycle. The last Olympic cycle quads for the men weren't required to win on a World or Olympic stage, very few men tried it in the SP and some didn't even try it in the FS, with 2 quads in the FS being extremely rare. Then that changed, and fast. There's no saying the same won't happen in the ladies, and we do seem to have more ladies trying 3-3s these days, even if most of them are 3t-3ts.
  7. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,648
    Silly! Are you going to lose respect for ladies who aren't doing quints in 20 more years? Maybe ladies aren't doing 3/3's because they're hard and most people can't do them. Just because a few years have passed since the first 3A doesn't make it any easier on the body. There are complaints about "There are no ladies in ladies skating" but demanding that every skater do insane jumping passes is only going to limit the sport to midgets and prepubescent girls.

    I think the new scoring system has made skating much harder beyond jumps because every aspect of the program counts from start to finish. If you want respect, then bring back figures where hardly anyone passed their 8th test.
  8. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,802
    I think I'm not as "excited/invested" in women's skating simply because
    1) there are no Canadian women to cheer for
    2) the women who aren't Canadian that I would enjoy either haven't been skating or doing so poorly that I find it hard to watch.
    I am sure things will swing back and there will be some/one for me to root amongst the ladies skaters, hopefully sooner than later.
  9. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,918
    I like a good jumper as much as anyone but what I love is a complete skater. There needs to be a level of difficulty in terms of the technical but there also needs to be a strength on the artistic side as well. Understanding music, timing and rhythm, relating to the music and the movements, portraying a story/character/feeling...there are only a handful of skaters who can do this convincingly.

    I lose respect for the sport when people like Alena Leonova score 64+ in an SP that's literally nothing but elements with nothing else between. That score was an effin' joke IMO as was that program. That was when I lost respect for the sport. Thank God Carolina delivered in the FS and won...
  10. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,346
    People were always complaining of Kostners PCS so that was always high even when she was inconsistent and when she became consistent it went even higher. No lutz and maybe one flip was just magic for her and her main opponents in 2012 were not really respected skaters even Suzuki. So with spin and step levels it was all good and not likely to repeat.
  11. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    4,891
    Every sport/discipline needs a pioneer to ascend some level and to bring some excitement. Like Yuna and Mao upped the field's ante with difficult 3-3s and 3As during Vancouver quadrennial, Chan with quads dominating has made quad battles revive, S/S and V/T with superior athleticism and artistry and D/W and V/M rivalry making it so interesting these days;) So maybe some people may have lost their respect for ladies field lately but with Yuna and Russian girls bringing their amazing technical abilities to the field, I foresee the issue would be resolved this season, in no time.
  12. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,684
    THIS.

    No, I have not lost respect. Figure skating is a difficult sport and much more difficult to be a complete skater. I still marvel at what these skaters bring to competitions. I admire strong competitors because they raise the bar.
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    Ladies skating hit the all time low in 2011 when Miki nothing but jumps Ando was awarded over 130 points in a LP and a World title for only 5 triples, no triple mistake, and a major mistake. So if I had lost respect for ladies skating as a sport it would have been then, so it would be impossible to say I did now as it is already much better than it was then.
  14. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    767
    Historically, if we judged most of the ladies who did ambitious back in the day under the standard the COP ladies are being judged on today, most of them wouldn't be able to do more more than Ashley's content. Sarah Hughes's 3/3 that won her the OGM in SLC would not be credited. Katarina Witt's "lutz" in 1984 - what a joke! Even Midori, who was easily the greatest jumper of all time, had a flutz for a long part of her career, and never really had the best lutz even when it was technically correct. Yuna deserves a huge amount of credit not just for doing the 3LZ-3T, but that hers really was pretty much perfectly rotated every time she did it. Even Kristi Yamaguchi's could be a bit iffy.

    There have really not been that many ladies throughout the history of skating who could do all five standard female triples on the correct edge OR do a fully rotated 3/3 in a difficult combination (anything other than 3T-3T) or manage even a partially rotated 3A. I don't think there are any fewer of these kind of naturally gifted athletes than there ever have been. Maybe we'd see somewhat less flutzing if all skaters had to still compete figures, but then I think we'd see a lot fewer high end triples at all. 3LZ is just a hard jump for women, all there really is to it. Same for 3-3s. Little boys who still compete in Novice or Junior and haven't without gone through puberty and their full adult growth can do 3A (Nathan Chen, Nam Nguyen, I believe Vincent Zhou) or even 4T (the little Chinese prodigy boy, I forget his name but he is amazing); those jumps are impossibilities for even extremely talented, disciplined, dedicated women who are grown adults.

    People who act like the sport has regressed never had a mathematically accurate understanding of what female skaters are capable of, that's all.
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  15. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,488
    Even though women competing in the sport most likely outnumber men 100 to 1, like most championships, the event is only as good as the people in it.

    It's funny this topic is coming up now, because I remember when CoP first came into play, jump content on the men's side started to drop, and it was the women who were upping the ante.

    Some years there have been podium sweeps where the ladies have had one or two triple / triple combinations. Other times, you were lucky if they included the standard five as stand alone jumps.

    Fortunately, there are a lot of outstanding ladies that have just graduated from the junior circuit, particularly from the power nations like Russia, Japan and the US, that are already making a splash on the senior circuit.
  16. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,270
    Difficulty is not simply measured by quantity of jumps being performed. The large majority of ladies in figure skating can only wish in their wildest dreams that they could ever skate like Carolina Kostner. Her speed, flow, edge quality, musical interpretation, and choreography are all first rate. I assure you that if most ladies attempted Caro's footwork sequences, they would be tripping up all over themselves and probably end up with a bloody nose, elbows, and knees in the process. What she does in between the jumps is NOT easy! Also, the jumps she does complete are very high quality with terrific speed, height, and technique. You don't see Kostner's protocols littered with wrong edge takeoffs or under-rotations.

    As far as Ashley goes, I find her jumps much more pleasing to my eyes than I ever did Tara Lipinski's, Sarah Hughes's, Sasha Cohen's, or Caroline Zhang's jumps. At least she doesn't donkey kick/hammer toe or contort her body as a corkscrew going into her flutz and flip jumps. She's much more stronger on holding her landings than Cohen or Zhang. Her jumps achieve more amplitude than Lipinski's ever did. Wagner is a spitfire, feisty fighter, and I like that! :)
  17. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    629
    I've lost no respect, and I find Ashley Wagner get's more flack than she deserves. She won Skate America with a clean 6 Triple Program (minus a questionable 2ft. landing and questionable lutz edge). Not to mention she had the crowd roaring and skated like a mature LADY champion. She deserves it, she's arguably one of the most complete skaters out there at the moment. Russian jumping beans I find to be immature, hit-or-miss, and contort themselves in a side-show manner; not exactly what I would call complete although they can jump. Another complete skater, Mao Asada, a much more lyrical and refined skater than Wagner has what I would consider slightly inferior jumps. Not that Mao can't jump, but she's more prone to UR's. Therefore the two are comparable on overall complete-ness level. Suzuki has a package much like Wagner's, and same with Carolina Kostner (trades out some jump content for immaculate skating skills and flow in her case). Yu-Na Kim has got it all so we'll see what her comeback brings, although I must say her extension has always been lacking and was very evident in 2011.

    I find the skaters mentioned; Wagner, Asada, Suzuki, Kostner, and Kim are all very high-end and complete packages competing against each other. In the past there usually hasn't been such depth. The coming seasons should prove very interesting! And I'm hoping that it's the most complete package on the night that wins, not the skater with the hardest jumps.
    dinakt and (deleted member) like this.
  18. alchemy void

    alchemy void Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    3,398
    Professordeb: You have Kaetlyn Osemond to cheer for; She's the discovery of the year for me thus far...she was freaking fabulous at Nebelhorn! :cheer:

    Her skating is late 90s retro in all the best possible ways.
    Sent from my Windows Phone using Board Express
  19. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    256
    Yes, COP seems demanding for female skaters particularly.

    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  20. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,253
    Maybe if the women were given the same length of programmes, the same number of jumping passes etc as the men they'd be able to up the technical ante. As it stands limiting the women in a way that they never were under 6.0 is going to have implications. The ladies in the 90s and up to COP were routinely including 8 jumping passes (and more) in their programmes rather than the arbitrary 7 they get under COP. Make the rules equal to both sexes otherwise there's no valid comparison between the two.
  21. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,488
    I think this is the key as to why CoP is so limiting.

    Using the likes of Ito, Yamaguchi and Harding at their best, they had up to sixteen elements in their free skates, including 7 triples, 2 double axels, four of five different spins, a spiral sequence and a step sequence.

    No wonder everyone's programs look the same now.
  22. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,648
    That may be true but there are going to be years when someone who is NOT "the best in history" wins a world title and gets to call themselves World Champion. It just means that they were the best that year, not the best of all time. It's no reason to lose respect for anyone in skating. There's always going to be something about a skater that not everybody likes, but that doesn't mean they weren't the best that year. I think overall most years the judging is fair, so who should have won, over Miki, someone who was 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th? Would that bring respect back into skating? Obviously not, so the WC is the best person that year which happened to be Miki. Oh well.

    Yes, I agree.
  23. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,802
    I understand Kaetlyn *could* become the next best female skater for Canada but it seems almost every time I try and get behind one of our women ... they ... run into difficulties and perform poorly. I am pulling for Kaetlyn to break that spell as I soooooooooooooooooo want a Canadian female singles skater to cheer for -- please let her have a good comp here. One good comp just isn't enough to get me on their bandwagon.
  24. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,482
    ^^ Well, Canadians have had Joannie, who took her skating up a notch prior to 2010 Olympics, and then performed so well under the very emotionally difficult circumstances of her mother's death in Vancouver 2010. Katelyn is looking good, so I'm sure she is worth rooting for to "break the spell."

    :respec:

    :respec:
  25. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,838
    IF COP as it exists today were in place before 2002-a lot of ladies would not attempt all of the triples. Think of all the ladies who had really horrible flutzes. It has not regressed, its just that the scoring system is scoring the jumps correctly. Tara Lipinski had a flutz but it counted as a triple even though she performed the jump incorrectly. that jump would not count today, I don't think.
  26. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,710
    I am losing more interest in ladies skating now that they don't do any spirals. I miss beautiful spirals and layback spins.
  27. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,253
    All of the jumps count under the current scoring system, they all get the base value and then if they are flawed then the GOE reduces that value, but even so they "count" towards the score.
  28. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    452
    First off, I couldn't possibly have lost respect for ladies skating: I am sure they are working every bit as hard now as they did in the 80s or 90s. And that's why I have utter respect for athletes: dedicating so much time and effort, pains and joys, towards one goal, and that is to get as close as possible to excellence in their field

    The change in COP has changed the reality of skating a lot. Flutzs, which were more or less tolerated (at some point in the 90s, you could count on one hand the number of women who did both jumps correctly), now are being systematically sanctionned. And that's just one example amid others. Also, I think the overall expected content is now more demanding than it used to be, because again, we know have a system that gives more weight to increased difficulty in transitions, spins and steps sequences. Watch programs back in the 80s or 90s, even in the men's category: very few would have gotten very far under the current COP because transitions, steps, and for some spins, were sorely lacking. The intensity of effort into these elements is greater now, and maybe that also explains why ladies would be more reluctant now to take big risks with their jumps

    I must admit though, that I have lost interest in women skating since the men have really started to present more diverse programs in the 90s. I feel there's been a revolution there, especially with the Stojkos, Candeloros, etc, that has never happened in ladies skating. What it lacks is not the jumps, and a lot of them have pretty programs to watch, but those programs are rarely exciting. Few of them are taking risks artistically, and we see very few programs with an interesting architecture choreographically speaking. It seems that the norm is that it must look "nice" and they are not going a lot beyond that. That's not something I blame the athletes for at all. I think the reasons behind that are partially that they are not encouraged to go beyond presenting pretty, be it through the COP or the people around them. I also think that, because a lot of the number of technical requirements that have to be crammed in in 2'30'' or 4'00'', they just don't have the time and energy to research a different artistic dimension, and the current COP has also forced them to mostly focus on getting maximum points, rather than dividing their focus equally between artistic and technic

    I guess what I am trying to say is, I wish there there were girls who could bring the same artistic diversity and interest to ladies' skating that people like Lambiel, Buttle, Abbott and Takahashi, to name just the more recent, have for the men's field
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  29. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,802
    As much as I love Joannie -- and Cynthia too -- it seemed like I was always holding my breath every time they completed. In her earlier years, Joannie didn't seem to have the mental fortitude to buckle down when she made a mistake. Not always, mind you, but more often than not. Now that I think of it, our ladies have almost always given me the biggest "fit of agony" because it seemed they could not deliver when it counted. Notice I said almost.

    I find it difficult to put into words. I love our Canadian women skaters. I always cheer for them to do well. Unfortunately, I feel let down more often than not. That being said, I will be cheering madly for both of the women competing for Canada this weekend. Gooooooooooooooo Kaetlyn & Amelie.

    BTW, I've not lost respect for ladies completing but they are my least favourite of the disciplines to watch.
  30. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,495
    I don't see why the scoring system would have anything to do with encouraging one artistic style over another. I agree that women seem to take fewer artistic risks, and that that has been true for much longer than the current scoring system has been around.

    In addition to the reasons you give, I would also suggest that traditional modes of "artistic" skating tend to be coded as feminine, so women get reinforcement both within the world of skating and from outside expectations to perform their gender in those ways, whereas men have more incentive to resist those traditions in the current cultural climate.

    Also, the men tend to be older and to have more life experience to draw on in developing their artistic style and in branching out from the tried and true. On average the typical 17-year-old elite male competitor is probably less polished and less interesting artistically than the typical 17-year-old female competitor.

    But the boy is also more likely to be competing at the junior level at 17 and is more likely still to be competing at 25.
  31. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,648
    Good point, and it's a catch-22 because the higher jumping ability that is expected, the younger the women have to be, but the men can still be older because they aren't affected by puberty as badly. Naturally the ladies are not going to skate like mature ladies because, they're not.
  32. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    452
    Sorry, I wasn't being very clear: I didn't mean to imply that the COP encouraged one style of skating over another (although clearly the judges somewhat do - see the men's competition at Worlds....:wall:). What I meant is that the COP doesn't encourages artistic research, so whether you skate pretty or with a richer program is unlikely to make a major difference so why bother?

    I guess in a sense, I wish the COP would favor risky programs over more tame ones ;)
  33. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,125
    I think the problem isn't the ladies but the judging system changing too fast and discouraging risks (like overpenalizing underrotation a few years ago and very strict edge calls).

    To fix it, why not rethink ladies skating from the basics.

    My proposals:

    Increase or junk the limit on number of jumping passes. All the current limit does is mean each jumping pass has to get lots of points and a skater can comfortably skip a problem jump or two. Give the skaters more options on different ways of getting more points with an emphasis on technique.

    Require that the LP has to have all six jumps in double or triple form.

    Rework the zayak rule so that a jump can be done more than twice if it's always in combination or once alone and once in combination.

    Audiences (including knowledgeable ones) need to get over the silly idea that young female skaters can do as many jumps and combinations (with the right edges and no underrotation) as they were led to believe they could when judging standards didn't come down too heavily on either of those.
  34. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,385
    Not just the CoP discouraged risks. CoP is really demanding in term of spins, steps, choreo. So much more than before.
    Skaters have to train as much time for spins, jumps and steps. But they can't train so much more than before. So, skaters have less time to practice jumps.
    At least, that's how I see it.
    It's not bad, at all. But we see that ladies can't do everything perfectly. It seems easier for male.
  35. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,495
    However, if you try to "fix" the lack of risk, you can introduce other problems, and then you -- or someone else, if all you care about is risk -- will come up with a fix to those. So it's best to anticipate what some of those other problems might be. For example,

    I agree that skaters should have different ways of getting more points with an emphasis on technique. But those different ways don't necessarily have to be more jumps -- or more rotations to jumps. If skaters have the option to do fewer jump passes and replace those passes with additional spins or sequences, then there would be more incentives to push the limits in non-jump elements, which has already been true under IJS especially for difficulty but maybe should be for variety and quality as well.

    Allowing skaters to do fewer jump passes without wasting points would also be an incentive to work on triple-triple combinations, so a skater can fit all the triples she can do (plus a double axel) into 5 or 6 passes and then free up an element slot for a special double jump or another kind of non-jump element.

    There could also be incentives to include double jumps with top quality or combined in unusual ways with jumps or other elements and transitions.

    On the other hand, if you simply allow unlimited jump elements, some skaters who are inconsistent with the hardest jumps will just throw in more attempts at the same jumps until they get the rotations in. And the best jumpers could rack up huge jump points by executing 7 triples and 7 or more double jumps. Both at the expense of non-jump elements -- either they'll leave out an allowed spin or sequence to gain time for another jump that could be worth more, or they'll skimp on the difficulty and quality of those elements so they'll take less time and allow more time for jumps.

    If you require this, then you're imposing more restrictions on the program content. This was never required in the past, either in the 1970s and before when most or all jumps were doubles, or the 1980s when the top ladies usually had 2 or 3 different triples, or in the 1990s/early 2000s when top ladies usually attempted 5 different kinds (and less than a handful over more than a decade had 6).

    What happens to an otherwise strong contender who 1) is recovering from injury and just plain can't safely execute one or two particular takeoffs, 2) struggles with one particular takeoff such that even her doubles are shaky or inconsistent, 3) saves her supposedly easiest takeoff for the end of the program and then pops it that day?

    How much does she lose for not meeting the "requirement"?

    Under the current rules, an axel jump of some kind is required in the free program. And any recognizable attempt meets the requirement, even a waxel/pop to waltz jump. So if a skater does her 6 triples (or 7 if she has a 3/3 combo), saves the double axel for the end, and pops it, she might get zero points for the less-than-single, maybe a fall deduction as well, but she gets full value for all the jumps she did execute. I don't think we should get any more punitive than that for a skater who plans only one (triple) salchow or only one (double) loop and then happens to pop it.

    Currently, if a skater plans a triple+2A sequence earlier in the program as her only axel in the program and then falls on the triple, then she'll lose credit not only for the axel that she doesn't execute (or does but in a way that's called as "triple + sequence") but also for the last jump element in the program because the program will still be waiting for the required axel jump.

    If you change the program such that continues looking for all six takeoffs as double or triple, then it would be more common for the last element or two to get no credit if any takeoff was omitted or singled earlier in the program.

    But if it's the last jump that's popped, then the only penalty is losing the value of that jump. And if a jump is rotated enough to be called as a double, but failed (fall, two-foot landing/step out, etc.), then the skater most of the value for that jump, and fall deduction, but do you want her also to be penalize for not successfully completing at least a double from that takeoff?

    If you want to enforce your requirement, would apply a deduction to any program that doesn't contain at least a double from all six takeoffs, in addition to the loss of points that come from failures?

    If so, better to handle it more like the current axel requirement -- any attempt at that takeoff fills the requirement even if the skater fails to rotate at least twice in the air.

    Personally, my simplest solution would be to allow ladies an extra 15 or 30 seconds and one more element slot, which could be an 8th jump pass OR a 4th spin OR a third sequence (with perhaps different kinds of sequences introduced as elements).

    And maybe build in a modest bonus for including all the takeoffs as doubles or better, in addition to all the points earned for the jumps themselves. Which is different from a penalty, which would take away points that the jumps actually executed already earned.

    In which case Zayak's 5 triple toes in the same program could be legal because most of them were in combination. But it's still an unbalanced reliance on the same skill too many times.

    Agreed. It would help if commentary would point out other areas of adding difficulty besides variety of jump takeoffs, and the difficulty of executing both lutz and flip with clearly distinct technique.
  36. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    600
    Then it must hit even lower when Kostner win a world title with easier triple-triple, a doubled loop in SP and only 5 triples. Two jumps mistake in total and doesn't even have 3 Lutz!!! LOL While the junior win with 7 triples program including 3LZ+3T....
  37. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,385
    It's not exactly the same level of basic skating...Give me any Kostner's program (even without jumps) over a junior 7 triples program !
  38. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    457
    I think the overall skating skills have improved a lot since the last Olympics. But although many ladies can't do a triple lutz, there are now numerous ladies that can do clean 3-3 combinations when there never used to be.