Has any skater tried a "Charlotte Spin"?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Margot, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. Margot

    Margot New Member

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    Several skaters have very successfully done a "Charlotte spiral". Has anyone ever tried to spin in that position? I've seen videos of rhythmic gymnasts doing several turns in that position.
     
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  2. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    I think centrifugal force would prohibit getting the leg to that position, but I may be wrong. I have been once before ;). How amazing would that look though.
     
  3. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    If it were to have been done I think Sasha would've done it. It really seems impossible, unless done as a pairs spin like M/D or I/Z. Maybe Lipnitskaya will surprise us, but honestly it seems kind of :scream: the uber flexibility required for that spin would be kind of ugly IMO.
     
  4. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    I would have thought that extreme flexibility would be needed to accomplish this. If the leg weren't totally vertical it would be almost impossible to do the spin with speed. Maybe Julia Lipnitskaya could try it.
     
  5. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    I think one could be done by going from a biellmann positon to the charlotte positon. Mostly, a matter of lowering the head toward the ice. Not to say it wouldn't be extremely difficult. I think Alissa would be a good candidate to try it.
     
  6. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    The question is if the position allows for applying what needs to be applied for a figure skating spin. Even rhythmic gymnasts do only a couple of turns in such a position. And since a Charlotte usually means that your head is against you leg and your hands are holding on to it, the leg would have be vertical in order for it to work because without arms and head you don't have any control over anything. It may be possible but I doubt it's worth the risk.
     
  7. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    From a physics standpoint, centrifugal force would make it extremely difficult if not impossible to maintain the vertical position while rotating that fast. In rhythmic gymnastics, they do the spin but their leg is not completely vertical and the spin only rotates once or twice, much slower than a figure skating spin.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  8. Rochelle

    Rochelle Active Member

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    At the very least, Moskvina's pairs teams (and others) have done a Charlotte-like position by the lady in pairs combination spins in the late 90s, early 2000s. Ina/Zimmerman, Elena/Anton, Kazakova/Dimitriev, etc.

    Perhaps someone can dig up a video -- or I can this weekend.

    A Charlotte spin for a singles skater would have to happen much like an illusion spin -- without the up/down movement of the illusion... or the ever-hated "A-Frame" or "butt spin", but with the free leg extended way up. I imagine it's possible, but with a low free leg. Given the force and physics of spins, I cannot imagine getting the leg up much higher than a traditional camel spin -- regardless of how flexible a skater is. There's a reason you don't see a traditional camel spin (with no help of a hand) with an extremely high free leg performed by super flexible skaters.
     
  9. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    i'm having trouble even envisioning it.
    michelle often exited her charlotte spirals with a little spin/change of edge, but that's nothing like what you guys are describing which is a centered spin


    btw before the 90's, what did the charlotte even look like? i know it was done by charlotte oenschalgel and sonja henie but from watching clips of them i can't imagine they actually did the vertical position michelle, sasha did...was the leg barely above hip level or what? i've never been able to find a picture or video of the original charlotte move
     
  10. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    Elena-Anton never did the Natalia spin (the one you are referring to), and although a Canadian pair had performed it before M&D, they were the first to make it popular. K&D naturally did it, since Artur was the partner and Tamara the coach. More recently a few younger pairs have done it, but no one did it better than M&D.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
  11. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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  12. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    I knew there was some way it could be done :rofl:
     
  13. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    I've wondered about this too! I think it'd look cool-if done with proper stretch and speed. :cool:

    OT but I think it'd be pretty cool if an artistic gymnast tried it-like the Memmel. :D

    One thing I've learned from watching sports like figure skating and gymnastics for years-never say never. Anything's possible! :D

    I knew if anyone could do it Sasha could! :lol:
     
  14. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    I could swear I've seen a photo in some figure skating book of Charlotte performing her move-but I might be confusing her with Henie. It's been years since I've seen it.

    Henie performed it bending way down but not really much of a split:
    Sonja Henie

    OT but Sonja had excellent speed! She's flying across that ice! :eek:
     
  15. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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  16. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    yes she's quite fast :dog:
    i find it crazy that there are no pictures on google of the move that put charlotte in the history books!

    wow this is VERY impressive. her leg is very close to a split, and what's crazy is that there's NO hand assist and yet she's actually on an edge and doing a true spiral whereas michelle and sasha often did it on the flat. nowadays when skaters do charlottes on an edge it's usually as a transition from an arabesque which is easier..but here she has absolutely no hand assist and yet has amazing control on the charlotte without having to ease into it from another position

    one thing i find interesting about skating is that no matter how many technical/athletic advancements are made in the sport, you can always find individual elements/moves that the "older" skaters did well or even better. a lot of modern skaters lack the edge control of older skaters
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
  17. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    BELITA----I am stunned. Thanks for sharing. Orbitz. The title "Pavlova of the ice " which was given to Henie seems more appropriate for Belita. They both brought something unique and wonderful to the ice: Henie, speed, energy, athleticism; Belita, great refinement and grace.
    Do you know if anyone ever penned a biography of Belita?
     
  18. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    Wow! Quite excellent skater for the day! Lovely Charlotte Stop and terrific spins-even a Y spin!! I'd never heard of this skater before. She had good jumps too! :eek:
     
  19. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    Wikipedia has a lot of nice things to say about Belita-she skated for Great Britain at the 1936 Olympics aged only 12! She placed 16th-I'm guessing those darn compulsory figures and her youth had something to do with her final placement because she was clearly an excellent skater with quite unique skills for the day:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belita

    Born at Nether Wallop, Hampshire, she skated (as Belita Jepson-Turner) for Great Britain in the 1936 Winter Olympics where she was placed 16th in the Ladies' singles competition, then her career turned towards Hollywood. She had classical Russian ballet training which carried over into her skating, and she was considered far superior to others skating at that time. As a young ballerina she was partner to Anton Dolin, appearing with the Dolin-Markova Ballet.

    Classical Russian ballet training-no wonder! Her Charlotte is the best I've seen of her contemporaries!
     
  20. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Idk I'm kinda glad they started jr worlds and have been shying away from the baby ballerina syndrome. The Brits had sent two 11 year olds to the previous olys (youngest olympians ever) and had good results (7& 8) so I guess they though it was worth a try. Belita as 14th in figures and 18th in fs.

    Anyone know why Megan Taylor wasn't at the games? She was clearly a top skater at the time, taking bronze at euros a few wweeks earlier and then silver at worlds just a few weeks later.
     
  21. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    A very interesting interview with Belita from the late 1970's on UKTV can be watched here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffxll8MqoMI

    Fabulous skater, very underrated due to her lack of amateur credentials IMO.
    ETA: She skates right at the end and despite her advanced years she lost none of her grace.
     
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    Wow! Thanks for posting these links.
     
  23. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome. I thought the forward catch camel spin was a recent invention by skaters like Zhang to gain points under IJS, so I was quite surprised to see a utube video of Belita performing one.
     
  24. geod2

    geod2 New Member

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    Here are examples by Mishkutenok-Dmitriev:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQszbkjxZE0&feature=player_detailpage#t=258s

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa8jAzeJWL8&feature=player_detailpage#t=305s


    The Belita links were very nice...thank you, Orbitz! :)

    .



     
  25. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    This just says she did not make the team

    http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1936/FSK/womens-singles.html
     
  26. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    thank you, I was looking for this :)
    because I knew this was performed before
    the charlotte like spin for the ladies pair

    I am happy Davankova/Deputat are making this known again
    and making it their signature pairs spin
     
  27. geod2

    geod2 New Member

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    She has a bit more flexibility in this version (or at least a higher leg extension) than did Natalia Mishkutenok,
    and if they could maintain their rotation speed all the way through it would be perfect!!
    ;)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlNDlbIKtUY&feature=player_detailpage#t=136s

    .
     
  28. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    Davankova is a flexible girl and hopefully they will work it even better
    Davankova/Deputat's spins are already fast

    wasn't this the same spin credited as the " Natalia Spin " ? :confused:
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  29. geod2

    geod2 New Member

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    :confused:
    I think so, yes.... at least according to wikipedia ( it's called "Natasha's spin in this article, so I'm a little :confused: too):

    "One hallmark of Mishkutenok and Dmitriev's style was their creative spins, especially one in which Mishkutenok would do a split and point her head down,
    with an arm around Dmitriev's calf so that they were both vertical and aligned;
    this signature move, called "Natasha's spin" was incorporated into virtually every one of their programs."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Mishkutenok

    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  30. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    nice. I used to call this the inverted i spin :rolleyes:

    I hope with the help of Davankova/Deputat's programs
    this will be reintroduce and this position will become popular in pairs
    competitions like how it is with the death spiral.