Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by skateboy, Jun 21, 2013.
Winning an Olympic Gold Medal isn't all about how much money it can earn you years later.
I agree, and that's why Manley should be proud of how she skated perfectly and won the free program. I am sure she is proud of her accomplishment, but she has also sounded very bitter in the past about not having that gold medalist title underneath her name. Initially her silver was lauded by the sports world, but over time people forget the "magic moment" and it just becomes a second place at the Olympics. I'm not sure it's just about respect. She gets that. It is also money opportunities that would have gone with it during her professional career. I mean, what else would she have to be bitter about?
Sorry for bringing this back, but I just have to ask - why do you think so? Just because Lambiel had problems with 3A? Or simply because you don't like his skating, and like all the mentioned skaters better than him? As for technique, Buttle, Weir and Lysacek didn't really have a quad (which is worth more than 3A, anyway), and Takahashi has had more serious problems with quads than Lambiel ever had. Oda would never have the PCSs that Lambiel had, Joubert's PCSs were surprisigly similar to Lambiel's around 2006, although his programs were easier (and I don't mean the jump content), but later that changed. Weir also couldn't have PCSs of the same level as Lambiel at later times (and deservedly so, looking at Weir's programs, lack of transitions and his basic skating quality). No one could beat Lambiel on spins, though. So, I see no logic in your statement.
But Stephane Lambiel was FAR from perfect.
In the SP, he did a double axel and didn't do his 4/3 combo as cleanly as he could have. Hence his third place finish there (but with the third highest PCS in that portion). In the LP, he made three major mistakes but scored nearly two points higher than Lysaceck in PCS. Lysaceck may have beaten Lambiel in the LP, but Lysaceck had a much cleaner performance and had a nearly two-point TES advantage, and still only beat Lambiel by 0.41 points. Buttle may have possibly beaten him, but even in his "mistake-riddled" LP, he made less mistakes than Lambiel in the LP.
You're saying that Lambiel got lucky the other guys didn't perform better, but why not give the same consideration to Lambiel who didn't perform up to his best either? It's not as if the judges didn't like him as he did come in as the World Champion. I just find it odd to say that the other men were more favored to win a medal over Lambiel (or that nobody thought he could have won a medal) when Lambiel was pretty well-liked at the time and it's not as if the other men (outside Plushenko) were known for their consistency.
I love Weir, but you know it was a messy competition when he places second behind Plushenko in the SP.
Lambiel made MORE mistakes than both Buttle and Lysacek over the two programs and still beat both, and still beat Lysacek by an enormous margin. In the LP Lysacek skated letter perfect, Lambiel had 3 huge errors, and Lambiel still ended up in a virtual tie (both had 152 and change). A clean Lambiel would have clobbered a clean Lysacek by 15 points or more in the LP alone. Jeff and Lambiel get similar PCS, Lambiel has better spins and similar footwork, neither get strong GOE on jumps, and Lambiel has the quad, so if both skated pefectly Jeff wouldnt have even been as close as he was either.
You really think Buttle or especialy Lysacek wouldnt have been alot more lucky if they won silver. Lambiel was actually the one who made more mistakes than he usually does, despite that he isnt super consistent and rarely skates clean either; while Jeff made about the same as usual, and Evan about the same as usual too. Evan had rep since he has a mere World bronze but Stephane with a World gold didnt, LOL! Stephane was lucky to beat two guys he had beaten consistently for 2 years at that point, and who he would have had to make alot of mistakes and them make much fewer (Buttle) or none at all (Lysacek) in order to lose to?
Yep pretty stupid. Now back under your bridge.
PS- lucky is Lysacek in Vancouver. Lucky that Lambiel and Takahashi were coming off injury/temporary retirement layoffs and that Lambiel bombed the Olympics, while Takahashi was screwed in the SP then screwed himself in the LP; lucky that Buttle retired rather than stay in for Vancouver not forseeing even a mediocre non quadster like Evan could win, lucky that Plushenko gave away the gold with overconfidence, lucky that Abbott didnt skate like Nationals, lucky that....well you get the picture.
Blah blah blah. Lambiel was far from perfect, yes. Jeff did make more mistakes than usual (he did not normally bomb the SP like he did there). I said that Lambiel realized he was lucky. He made mistakes, but was lucky that others did as well. If they were both perfect (or as perfect as usual - Jeff quadless and Lambiel 3A-less), then the score difference probably would have been about the same as it was. You undermine Jeff's spins - Lambiel had better speed in his spins, but Jeff had more 'clean' positions. Lambiel was the best spinner in the world, but Jeff would have been the 2nd best spinner in the world.
What I'm saying is that an imperfect Lambiel needed Jeff to be imperfect, and he was lucky that that's what happened.
I'm going back under my bridge now.
LOL Lambiel over the two programs had 2 falls, doubled 2 planned triple axels (and yes at that point he usually attempted them and sometimes landed them like Worlds), and had two very shaky landings. Jeff had 2 falls (one on a quad attempt he had no hope of landing) and had two small hand downs. Lambiel had atleast 8 points more worth of mistakes over the two programs. How on earth would Jeff and Stephane be about the same if both skated cleanly with Jeff having no quad. Their PCS was always about the same, and Jeff has a base value about 10 points lower over the two programs without a quad. OK he tried the quad in the long here so I think it was more like 6 points apart in base value over the two programs but still behind. At the Grand Prix final both made similar errors and Jeff lost by about 12 points, and at Worlds both had a clean short and major mistakes in the long (Stephane popped 3 jumps, 2 of them to singles, and Jeff had 2 falls) and the gap was huge. Maybe if both skated cleanly with quads and triple axels they would come almost tied, but as all know Jeff's quad did not exist. For the record I do love Jeff's skating and wish he had stuck around after his World win to prevent Evan Lysacek, the most mediocre Olympic Champion in history, from vulturing the Vancouver gold that he could have won.
BTW regarding Evan again it is quite possible he would not have medalled in Turin even with a clean short, even with the huge disaesters of many other skaters, especialy Lambiel. At that point in time the best a clean short from him was capable of was something 75-77. Actually his PB in the best in the short at the time was in the low 70s, but based on his score for 2 major mistakes I will be kind and say 75-77. That with his LP score, although his LP score might have been higher in the final flight, still wouldnt have beaten Lambiel, and might not have medalled. If he did it would have meant nipping Buttle for the bronze though, so I guess if anyone was lucky if you want to look at it that way....
Yeah, and I guess Buttle and Lysacek are just very unlucky that even with a also mistake-riddled LP and a pretty imperfect SP by Lambiel they still couldn't beat him. It's all about luck, folks.
FP - Happiness
I can't find the behind the scenes shots when he found out he won the silver. That was a nice moment too.
Some others -
Liz Manley and Paul were so happy and to them the silver was Gold. I loved to revisit the genuine joy on their faces on the podium. That is winning
I think Pang/Tong were delighted with their silver in Vancouver, mainly because I don't think they expected to beat both S/S and K/S; it was made all the sweeter after missing out in Torino IMO.
This. It annoys me every Olympics to see a silver medalist sobbing on the podium like their favorite puppy just died. It's an Olympic medal for goodness sakes. Whoever thought of the "you don't win silver you lose gold" slogan I hope has an appropriate corner of heck (where they are forced to watch hours skating competitions where the only music allowed is Carmen, Bolero, Romeo and Juliet, Swan Lake and Requiem for a Dream, accompanied by Scott Hamilton screech commentary with tap water and stale popcorn for snacking).
When one silver medal skater had has dream for olympic gold medal long time. It is understandable. As an example Mao looked so disappointed on podium. Because Mao's long time dream since she was young was only vancouver olymic gold medal, not any other color of medal. When she was young genius girl, She and mamy her fans believed that she will be olympic gold medalist in future, particularly in Vancouver. So It was understandable
Michelle Kwan cried about her silver because she was sad she lost. All of the women silver medalists do. This leads to the question, are women skaters more emotional and bitter about losing than men?
Of course we have to exclude Oda from our sample as an extreme outlier.
I don't think so. Maybe men are better at hiding their emotions due to societal expectations, but you can't really say that Orser, Stojko (1994), Plushenko (2002 and 2010) among others were non-emotional about their silver medals.
Whereas, Midori Ito, Elizabeth Manley (at the time), and Sasha Cohen weren't exactly crying on the podium either.
I agree with you. The women get more media attention, so their post-Olympic years of coming to terms with loss-- e.g. Janet Lynn, Fratianne, Sumners, Manley, Thomas, Trenary, Ito, Kerrigan, Kwan, Slutskaya, and Cohen--are more exposed. The men get to have the same "issues" without the public seeing it as much. Some skaters-- and this is true of men as often as women--are prone to melancholy. Dorothy Hamill said she was a tiny bit sad at the time she won, because she knew her dream was coming to end. This was just her temperament. She could be tough, but she had a predisposition to getting depressed--even in happy times.
I think every athlete needs a course in losing gracefully on the podium. Watching a disappointed silver or bronze medalist is awful and it's totally disrespectful to the person who won, ruining their moment.
Surya Bonaly was very disrespectful, but we forgive her because she came from an insane family.
I don't think so. How can you help emotions? I don't think it is disrespectful to the person that wins. In every other sport the losing team is allowed to look sad. Why are figure skaters supposed to be robots? As long as they don't act like Surya Bonaly and rip off their medal, I have no problem with disappointment. I even give Nancy Kerrigan a pass with her make up comment.
Sasha Cohen looked disappointed in every event she skated in, but I think she was still a graceful non winner. I still remember the interview at 2003 nationals where she was staring at her water bottle the whole interview. Girl was upset at how she skated. I see no fault in that!
The US gymnastics ladies were clearly upset with their silver medals in 2004 and 2008. Does that make them selfish?
The gold medalists are probably not even thinking of the silver medalists. Do you really think Sarah felt her moment in 2002 was ruined by Michelle and Irina being upset at how they skated? Michelle was visibly upset in 1998 and I am 100% sure that did not ruin Tara's moment.
The only competition that I can think of where the silver medalist might have been on the gold medalists mind is the women's vault competition at the
2012 Olympics when Mckayla Marony was like the clear favorite, ended up with silver, and was doing the whole "not impressed" face. LOL.
Many of these athletes are children.
I think you both got your points. Of course, when aiming for the gold, anything else but gold seems like having "lost" the gold, rather than won something different. That's bad, because for many, the silver, bronze or even a place lower than third is or will be the highest they ever achieved, and it should be considered a great value in a skaters career to have competed on the highest level, regardless of the ourtcome on that specific fateful event. It obviously makes a big difference whether a young skater has the mantra in mind "I'm going to win the Olympics" or "I'm going to take part in the Olympics one day". The latter might be the healthier, although I can't deny that the former may bring out the absolute best in said skater during the time of the run-up to the podium.
As for being disrespectful: sobbing on the podium from disappointment is understandable (as it is behind the scenes and everywhere else) and I wouldn't say it's disrspectful. Emotions can't be helped most times, and with the pressure decreasing, tears just run. It may appear thoughtless crying because of a silver or bronze, but it's not tactless against those who won, but rather tactless against those who haven't even made the podium - although have dreamt to make it just as much.
But what about Surya?
That a large and inaccurate generalization. For starters, Liz Manley's silver Olympic medal is an example. Then, Cupcake was thrilled to earn silver to Kwan in 2003. And Akiko Suzuki was beyond happy about her podium placement.
Speaking about happy silvers for men, don't forget Ten from this year.
I agree that Surya's 1994 display was probably the worst example of being out of order on the podium. And McKayla did everything except rip off her medal. Classy.
It's not just figure skaters, either. It's anyone on a podium.
To each his own, I guess. Nancy Kerrigan's behavior? I thought it was lousy. Even teenagers are old enough to behave well. Emotions are entirely understandable, but yes, one can feign a positive appearance for a few minutes. It's good sportsmanship. Tears, anger and disappointment can be controlled. Beauty pageant contestants do it all the time. I have no problem with backstage disappointment.
When I see an obviously disappointed silver/bronze medalist on the podium, I end up watching them more than the winner. So for me, it does take away from the winner's big moment.
I think a lot of times skaters try, but they can't completely be in control. Kwan wasn't bawling or crying on the podium and put on a brave face, smiled, and sang the national anthem. However, you could tell her eyes were puffy from crying.
BTW, I may be a jerk but I loved the Nancy comment. It was stupid of her to say it when the cameras were there, but she was talking amongst her peers (Lu Chen) and other people near the backstage. She probably didn't realize the camera was filming, so she probably thought it was a semi-private setting. I may be projecting here, but I'm sure Lu Chen may have appreciated the joke because she too was waiting for like 30 minutes and was told the wrong thing about Baiul holding up the ceremony because she was putting on make-up. Seriously, if someone told you that, you'd be a little crabby too.
Nancy was upset since she knows she was robbed of gold. Even people who arent fans of Nancy mostly all admit this. The delay and Baiul's histronics just rubbed salt in the wounds and made it even worse. To do that to her after all she had been through was a crime by the judges.
Please Nancy was just acting like a spoiled princess. Oksana had none of the advantages Kerrigan grew up with mainly having a family and the best training facilities. Even if she did get robbed she came off badly. Then of course the Disney parade fiasco where she was caught bitching about how corny it was.
Yeah, Plush wasn't crying, but he sure didn't waste any time declaring himself the 2010 "Platinum" medalist. Orser also said once that it was difficult to talk about the Olympic LP night even years later. Stojko seems bitter too, given how much he likes to criticize current skaters/IJS.
Do they? How do you know?
Actually I saw tears in Plushy's eyes, but he did not declare himself Platinum medalist, it was his wife who first declared him and then the fans who put the medal on his website. Maybe it is difficult for people to believe that Plushenko does not moderate the site but I've also seen a lot of other strage thins there, at least strange for an official site, like avatars with Patrick Chan and other skaters etc. And I bet Plushenko didn't call in second 2 and say, "hey, what is all the Patrick Chan/Daisuke Takahashi/etc. fangirling on my website''?
Surely it wasn't his wife who did this? http://s2.reutersmedia.net/resource...RE61I0MPR00_RTROPTP_0_OLYMPICS-FIGURE-SKATING
I can't say anything because I will be considered, again, as a Plushy hater. Hahaaa
The funny thing is that if chanunderrated asked every person who is not a fan of Nancy, it means there are not a lot of persons who don't like her !
I don't know, did she?
Being uninformed or missinformed does not mean to be a hater.
Evidence, please? I didn't watch the competition, but didn't care much for how either skater was packaged. Oksana the orphan waif, Nancy the working class girl made glamorous.
When the competition is discussed on this board, my impression is that it is 50-50 either way.
Personally as I have stated before, I would have Baiul off the podium completely. I am sure there are some who think she deserved to win gold that night, but in general over the last 20 years, the consensus has been that Kerrigan was robbed. IMO its the only time she was robbed of a placement in her career.
Actually over the years I understand more and more why people think Baiul should have won. Her core skating skills are better, even though she didn't get to really show them. Still, her skate fell short of the required standards at the same (footwork, change foot combo spin, spin revolutions, jump combos, spin difficulty or having any sort of in-betweens) and should not have gotten the scores she did. As bland as Kerrigan was, her skate was at least more complete.
All things considered I would have Chen or even Sato win the free - don't know how that would affect the podium as they both had issues in the short.
Probably something like:
I am one of those who is not a Kerrigan fan. But to say that her skating that night was not better than Baiul is wrong IMO. Sure Oksana had personality and speed but that shouldn't win gold medals when another skater has a near flawless skate. It seems the judges were sick of the Nancy/Tonya debacle and were enchanted with Baiul. So all of sudden Kerrigan who was always a judges favorite, all of sudden wasn't.
Also when Chen and (especially) Sato underperformed in the SP, it left the door more open for Baiul to win over Kerrigan. Sato didn't get to skate in the final flight so was not going to beat Baiul unless she melted down , and Chen was now just viewed as a Bronze medal contender with Bonaly.
Also what difference should it make how Baiul or Kerrigan were packaged. I'm not a fan of either one personally, but again it has no bearings on their performances.
I agree. Not to make such a bold, absolute statement, but the only people who think Kerrigan should not have beaten Baiul in the LP (even if they think Chen and Sato were superior) are ones who either just love Baiul no matter what she did or are really happy Kerrigan is not an Olympic gold medalist for a bunch of reasons.
I'm far from being a Kerrigan fan (even if I do perceive that FSU has a bias against her to the point where she's underrated) and I prefer Baiul most of the time, but that night, Baiul was majorly gifted for the crap she put out. Now, had her SP been her LP...that would've been different as that SP showcased her skills much better.
I do agree with what many of you are saying. The judges were sick of the whole Harding-Kerrigan hype that they had been ringing in Lillehammer for 2 weeks solid (well probably more) by then. In that sense Harding's bodygaurds's friends nephew clubbing Kerrigan probably did cost her the Olympic Gold, despite her coming back from it and skating brilliantly. By that point Kerrigan winning would have been the Cinderella dream story and dream ending that American producers would have probably made movies about for years, and the thought of that to many became nauseating so some decided to just puncture that balloon if they could.
They also were running out of viable alternatives to win at that point. Chen and Sato were no longer factors for the gold after the short program. No way on earth they were ever going to see Bonaly as an Olympic Gold medalist. Baiul was really in the right place at the right time. I wouldnt say that about her 93 World title which was very impressive considering who she was at the time, was won over a very strong event of skating even with Kerrigan's meltdown, and which was won with a more solid performance than her 94 Olympics one.
Separate names with a comma.