Had Fumie won bronze and gold in 2006, would they be tainted by Kwan's absence

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by chanunderrated, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    As everyone knows Kwan was missing from the 2006 Olympics and 2006 Worlds. However for most skaters this left no asterik on their achievements as Kwan was no longer the one to beat, and Cohen, Slutskaya, Arakawa, were all likely to beat her anyway. Even for Meissner, the absence of Asada and Kim tainted her achievement more than Kwan not being there. However Fumie is the exception of the top skaters.

    Had she won bronze over Slutskaya at the 2006 Olympics, and gold over Meissner at the 2006 Worlds, as many felt she deserved, her marks probably would have been tainted by Kwan not being there. In fact in her case more than Asada not being there, as she had beaten Asada at Japanese Nationals but never beaten Kwan. This is the reverse of the others whose achievements were not tainted in anyway by Kwan's absence as they all probably would have beaten her anyway, but are tainted by Mao not being there. In Fumie's case she has never beaten Kwan in any competition though, not even in a COP meeting, so anything great she would have achieved would have been tainted by Kwan not being there.
     
  2. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone would have though that. Perhaps if Fumie won bronze, there may have been talk that Michelle could have possibly won bronze but I don't think her results woud be "tainted". She would have also beaten Irina, who was the heavt favorite of the whole competition.

    I also don't think Kimmie's WC was tainted in any way either. She was at her first worlds and she beat the reigning world and Olympic silver medalist who basically just had to show up to win, along with a few other world medalists. Asada and Kim were ineligable to compete at that Championship so I don't see what you mean.
     
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  3. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    I also don't understand what you mean. Why would an Oly and/or World medal won by Fumie be any more (or any less) "tainted" by Kwan's absence than the same medals won by others?
     
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  4. falling_dance

    falling_dance Bravo, Patrick.

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    What chanunderrated is stressing is that Arakawa, Cohen, and Slutskaya had already beaten Kwan at Worlds (twice in the case of the latter two, and in a phase of Olympic competition in the last case), whereas Suguri never had. On the other hand, Kwan had been skating "half-seasons" for the past two years and, in the free skate at 2005 Worlds, Kwan's lead over Suguri was a mere 1.44. ETA: Now that I think of it, Suguri did beat Kwan in the qualifying round in Moscow by some way.

    Of course, every competition is different and the 2006 Olympics took place eleven months after the last time all of those skaters had competed at the same event, so I wouldn't think of any of the medals won in the absence of a top skater as being tarnished in any case.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    No more than Paul Wylie winning the Silver or Sarah Hughes winning the Gold, if at all. At least at her best (2001-03ish) Fumie was a World Silver-Bronzish skater if she skated her best, unlike Wylie and Hughes. Quite frankly, had Fumie been placed properly in the SP at SLC, Hughes would not have won and Michelle and Irina would have been properly placed and Fumie could have won the Bronze.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
  6. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Michelle had not competed all season long and was injured. No one knows what kind of shape she would have been in but that's neither here nor there. Michelle had been out of the picture for a year and the fact that she never returned to competition only emphasizes the point. And Mao and Yu-Na were not even eligible to be at worlds that year so there's no point to throw their names in either. Had Michelle competed and Fumie beat her then good for Fumie; she'd have beat her fair and square...but the reality of the matter is Fumie couldn't beat a healthy a Michelle.
     
  7. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Hmm surprising to hear some dimiss Kimmie winning Worlds with Mao and Yu Na not there atleast. Mao and Yu Na were only months younger than Meissner and had competed vs her and dominated her in juniors. They should not have been ineligible for Worlds (or Olympics) in the first place. It seems some of you remember around that time 7 years ago as that is what many said right about Meissner's World win, with a few Meissner fans valiantly trying to defend the result to the masses of critics Even Shizuka's Olympic win was marred by some since Asada who had beaten her 3 times that season wasnt there.

    Now Michelle was past her prime and no longer the dominant skater even healthy, so the only one tainted by her absence was Fumie had she achieved something more, only since she never beat Kwan and even lost all their COP meetings where Kwan is supposably weaker. Fumie would have beaten Michelle and Kostner for the bronze at the 2005 Worlds had she either not fallen in the short or not doubled her 2nd triple lutz in the long though.
     
  8. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Hughes won bronze at the 2001 Worlds, bronze at the 2001 and 2002 GPF, and the gold at the 2002 Olympics. She was a much more regular podium finisher in that 2 season stretch than Fumie ever was in her life.

    Who would Fumie have beaten for bronze at the 2002 Olympics even with a better result in the short. Fumie was a relative nobody back then, an only 5 triple program for her wouldnt have beaten a 6 triple Slutskaya (even lackluster) or 6 triple Kwan (even with a fall on a 7th triple attempt).
     
  9. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the absence of Kwan doesn't "taint" anything, but I doubt that the fact that Fumie had never beaten Kwan before would have made much of a difference. Kwan had long lost the "aura of invincibility" and her medaling was no longer regarded as a "sure thing".
     
  10. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    This whole thing is totally ridiculous!! Not just to Meissner but Cohen Arakawa and Slutskaya! Everyone! Mao beat everyone in run up to Turin! Everyone! So every achievement could be seen as dismissable. But the rules are the rules. Mao was ineligible for what would might have been a guaranteed Gold in Turin! Yes Mao could not win Gold in Turin or Gold in Calgary Worlds but not one medal or win is tarnished by Mao not being eligible. She wasn't eligible! Of the eligible people and those who competed it is what it is! Kwan not skating doesn't tarnish anyone because at like no point in the whole 2005-2006 did she skate anywhere of a major official status! Kwan absence doesn't tarnish, mao absence doesn't tarnish! This is just not anything at all in any way!
     
  11. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    This is a super weird question.
     
  12. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    This isn't the only one of late. Off season and people are pulling things out of their butt to generate content for this forum.
     
  13. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Someone's absence doesn't taint the medals of those present. And that's true of everyone in every sport.

    So that's that answer, next thread please? :kickass:

    I know right? By the way I am still waiting for that best hair poll - I mean, we need to get that one out of the way before we move on to that very important question near the end of July: Gracie Gold's cupcakes or Sasha Cohen's cookies? Much more interesting and fascinating debate than the one in the OP here to be honest :shuffle:
     
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  14. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I think Sokolova would have something to say about Gracie Gold's cupcakes.
     
  15. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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  16. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Hu??? Mao and Yuna were too young to compete at the Olympics and worlds in 2006. It was/is a rule. There is nothing to defend about Kimmie's world title or Shizuka's Olympic title.

    Kimmie beat Yu Na in the LP in 2007 just as an FYI. And Mao didn't even win that world championship.
     
  17. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie Member

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    ITA. What would have been the case if something had been different than it was is musing aobut something not worth discussing, IMO. What may taint someone's medal (or achievement) are utterances like these. "You wouldn't have won if soandso had been there...!" - "Maybe. But soandso wasn't there."
     
  18. mossop

    mossop New Member

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    All golds won by female medallists after 2006 were tainted.
     
  19. rosewood

    rosewood Wheeee! Wonder babies!

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    Basically I agree with you, but first of all Korea did not have any spot to send their skater to Olympics in 2006. ;)
     
  20. JJS5056

    JJS5056 Member

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    How many inaccuracies can be stuffed into two paragraphs to support an illogical poll and conclusion?

    Fumie won bronze at the 2002 and 2003 Worlds, silver at 2006 Worlds, gold at the 2003-2004 GPF, as well as both the 2003 and 2005 4CC. In that same time period (02-06), she was also top 5 at every World and Olympic event she competed in aside from 04 Worlds. How in the world is that record not comparable to Hughes' from 00-02?

    Lastly, Kwan landed 5 triples in SLC (she two-footed the 3T), not 6, and there's certainly a case for Suguri being as high as 3rd in each program.
     
  21. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    You must be referring to YOUR own post, rather than mine with this statement.

    Medalling at every Olympics, Worlds, or Grand Prix final entered for 2 seasons, in addition to winning the Olympics over Kwan and Slutskaya, is far above Suguri's 2002-2003 or any phase of Suguri's career as far as being a constant presence at the top and success. You are delusional if you think otherwise. 2 seasons of medalling at 2 of the 3 World or Olympics (one a post Olympic Worlds with many people absent, Hughes included), not even qualifying or coming last at the Grand Prix final, and not even coming close to a big titles is comparable to Hughes in 2002-2003 only in some alterior universe. Hughes achieved more in 2 seasons than Fumie did her whole career, let alone in a given 2 year span.

    A minor two foot, to the judges she still did 6 triples, one just with a slight flaw. Fumie didnt even rotate a 6th triple. There isnt a strong case for Fumie being 3rd in the short. Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, were all clearly better, and one could argue Sebeysten and Butyrskaya. The only obvious is she should have been higher than Hughes. In the long she landed less triples than Hughes, Slutskaya, Kwan, and Cohen, and her presentation was not on the level of Kwan or Cohen, so I dont see a strong case for her there either.
     
  22. JJS5056

    JJS5056 Member

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    You've completely changed the point you were trying (unsuccessfully) to make. You said Suguri did not compare to Hughes as a "regular podium finisher" at any point during her career. Fumie's lack of an Olympic title is not relevant to that statement. I am not debating who had more success. I am debating the accuracy of stating that Huges was more of a podium threat than Suguri ever was, and nothing you just stated changes that. Fumie's results are clear; placing top 5 all but one Word and Olympic competition from 02-06 make her undeniably every bit as much of a medal contender as Hughes was during her peak.

    As far as SLC, you've again twisted words and cited facts not based in truth. A two-footed jump was not considered complete under 6.0; no matter how "light" it may have been, Kwan's 3T was two-footed, flawed and not counted as a successful triple jump. She was marked based on 5 triples she landed on one foot. Additionally, I never used the word "strong" when discussing the case for Suguri being placed 3rd in either program. Saying that a case could be made means that it can be argued, and it absolutely can be. Kwan had an underrotated flip, Slutskaya a botched spin, and Cohen a more egregious flutz and shallow footwork. Do I think she should have been 3rd? No. But, it isn't unreasonable.

    Same with the LP. Cohen may have completed more triples, but she also fell, which impacts both sets of marks, whereas Fumie was clean and consistent. The two were also very even artistically- Cohen's Carmen was very empty choreographically. Kwan landed the same amount of triples, but with more glaring errors, and Slutskaya was tentative and sloppy. Saying Fumie could have been placed 3rd without controversy is valid, and I don't need to defend it any further.
     
  23. iloveemoticons

    iloveemoticons Well-Known Member

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    This has to be the most random question ever.