Gwen Knapp Revisting Plushenko Vs Lysacek

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by caseyedwards, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    Well...somebody agrees with you.:rolleyes:

    "Q - Evgeni, who, in your opinion, is the strongest skater today, you or Olympic Champion Evan Lysaceck?

    Plushenko : - Lysacek, of course, is a very good athlete. Poor athletes do not become Olympic champions. But I would not call Lysacek the strongest . Japanese Takahashi, according to my ideas, is much more professional: owns quads, is charismatic, he has a great choreography. That’s the skater of the future.”
    :encore:
     
  2. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Best summing up of all the faux controversy, in less than 13 words even!!! :hat1:

    :respec:

    :lol: :cool:


    New information to me as well, and probably not well known by most skating fans either. Plushy should write a book too -- his life story is probably fascinating. In one of the early skating vids I watched, the commentators mentioned that Plushy came from a poor family, and thus he was determined to win in a hurry so that he could provide for his family. I think Plushy is an exemplary person and does not deserve all the bad press he has received. Yes, he didn't handle stuff well at the Olympics, but I think it is more the fault of skating judges having held him up so unrealistically high at 2006 Olympics. After the resulting criticism, I think Plushy felt the necessity to come back in 2010 in order to prove he was really the best and could win fair and square. JMHO.

    I don't think Knapp is a good barometer of anything concerning figure skating. It's good to see figure skating mentioned generally in the media, but it ends up being pointless if journalists continue to make numerous errors of fact and interpretation. However, it's par for the course, or business as usual I suppose, especially in online blogs and columns.

    IMO, Plushenko does not exhibit delicacy, nor would I call him graceful. He's more sharp, rough-edged, manly, full of bravado and energy (although his nerves and age showed uncharacteristically in 2010 Olympic lp), he has a distinct Russian flair, and he incorporates choreography meant to show feeling and artistry, but it doesn't come close to the delicacy and grace of skaters like Matt Savoie, or Johnny Weir. Nor should it, since as ciocio pointed out, that's not Plushenko's style or intention.

    Quite a lot to expect from most figure skaters. For example, look at the acclaimed champion, Yuna Kim (extremely poor stretch and flexibility, particularly in her lower body -- she never points her feet, and that's one of her main flaws but only to people who expect that quality in a skater). I'm sure the qualities you mention are very desirous especially for those who love ballet and would like to see skaters perform in a similar aesthetically pleasing fashion. Most figure skaters probably never heard of Vaganova school, unfortunately. Watch videos of the gifted Katharine Healy in that case ... she was a ballerina and a figure skater extraordinaire!

    Of course, because the ballet dancer is doing that only with his own muscle power, while the skater is aided by ice and skate blades. BTW, I'm not familiar with Najarro. Can you provide a link to Najarro's Absolute Skating interview? Thanks!
     
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that's interesting. Hopefully, Plushy will write a book. Maybe it's like what I heard the commentator say when Plushy was performing as a 15-year-old at Worlds ... that Plushenko was focused, determined, and in a hurry to win, in order to provide for his family. Perhaps he was always in a hurry and simply liked skating better than ballet, and wasn't interested in the rigorous ballet barre practice required to become a successful dancer. Maybe he felt there would be more money and international prestige in figure skating?

    When Plushy started preparing for the 2010 Olympics, he had first sought assistance from Denis and Melissa Petukhov, but I heard they didn't continue working together.

    Again, wow! And, kudos to Plushenko for honest assessment.
     
  4. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I'm guessing what she means is that after Boitano turned pro (the first time) in 1988, the US men didn't win any more Olympic gold medals until 2010. For casual viewers who don't follow the sport except during the Olympics, anything less than Olympic constitutes a rut. Wylie's and Goebel's silver and bronze don't count. Eldredge's and Lysacek's world golds don't count. OGM is the only title worth celebrating.

    Obviously, most of us disagree.
     
  5. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I often find myself endeared to Evgeny's assessment of other skaters. We tend to value the quality in the same skaters. For example, he has complimented the skating of Lambiel, Takahashi, and Abbott in the past, my 3 favorite male skaters currently. I like his personality too even if I think his skating often leaves A LOT to be desired in terms of presentation. His athleticism in the jumps is arguably greater than any other male figure skater in the history of the sport. My favorite ever Plushenko LP was his 2004 program Tribute to Vaslav Nijinsky. I've always found it strange that this was not selected as his LP for one of his Olympic appearances (obviously he would have needed to make it COP friendly for 2006 & 2010 though) as I think it exceeds all of his Olympic skates and I think it's his best program ever, short or long. While I wasn't a fan of his SP or LP this season, you have to admire a man who can come back from a 3 and a half year retirement at the age of 27, win Cup of Russia, win Europeans, and come within less that 1 point of missing out on a 2nd Olympic gold medal. Very impressive!
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
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  6. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    In the exhibition he did I think in 2004, where he did both the male and female parts (and transformed his costume), I thought he showed grace and delicacy when doing the female part. He is one of the best exhibition skaters I've ever seen, because while he can make fun of himself, he doesn't make fun of the material.

    The link to reut's interview with Najarro is:
    http://www.absoluteskating.com/interviews/2010antonionajarro.html

    from the link reut posted in the Joubert & Abbott to Try Flamenco thread in The Great Skate Debate.
     
  7. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    That was his tribute to pairs skating right? Hilarious.
     
  8. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    I think the last skater to truly carry that "Russian flair" was Alexei Urmanov. Kulik was a beautiful skater, but not in the classical, dignified way that Urmanov was. Abt was always a little rough around the edges.
    This article posted during the Olympics by Russian journalist Igor Poroshin talks in-depth about Plushenko's skating and his problems. Although I do agree that Plushenko is a skating genius to begin with, but thought it was a fabulous and interesting analysis. http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71949
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
  9. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    double post.
     
  10. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Sandu is one more lost talent, more than Abt. Imagine if Abt was born a little later and was competing after yag/plu years!!!!
    savoie's sp in Olympics 2006 was what transitions which serve the choreo should be about, i looooooooooooved it. And he started with a flying spin:rollin:
     
  11. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    He wrote a biography, unfortunately I could not read it, just a few passages, with the google translator.:rolleyes::D

    Yes, back in 2005-2006, Plushenko complained several times that Lambiel was underscored in the PCS and everybody was considering Joubert as his main rival even Lambiel was a better all-around skater. Hope that everybody knows that Plush has nothing against Joubert , they are on very good terms. :)

    :encore::respec:

    :cheer2:
    Nijinsky is my favorite LP ever and Assisai my fav exhibition ever!:watch:
     
  12. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    no really, not intention to bash, i think Plushenko's success was /is that he had his completely own style, with all the good and bad that this comes. He had the originality on one side that what you see it is him and you recognize his style by a mile(mullet helps), so it was a case of love him or hate him but then he couldnt leave out his personality when he skated and that costed in choreo and interpretation. In Nijniki maybe, MAYBE, if you see this big german documentary of how the program was created, I think there it was maybe the biggest attempt to leave out his own persona and stick to the character. And even then the original program he trained is different to the outcome late in the season. If you see some of his exhibitions he tends to improvise a lot from show to show, full confidence, or lack of discipline there or both:summer:


    He was but pretty early, around 11-12 yeaRS old, and that I guess had to do with his flexibility and long arms, at that time you should have seen his bielman by the way, before puberty his leg was vertical to the ground and could do it with both legs:wideeyes:

    Sth funny, in greece Plushenko has the nickname Nureyev of Ice, but I suppose comes not from any comparisson but from him being Russian and just as popular. Your whole analysis in this thread is wonderful, I just caught up. And i agree,he is not a classic. I wouldnt call him graceful or delicate with the meaning I call Lambiel, and with all the back positions when he lands quads etc, but I like his bodyline for a figure skater, he gets some interesting poses mostly because of his flexible waist and long arms (i dont mean the flail). I so laughed with the perfect coordination of arms and legs, yeah, thats NOT Plushenko :p


    That was Asisyai, it was not a tribute to pair skating, but a tribute to russian pandomime theater, this character was created by Slava Polunin

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Only a year went by and Polunin's famous clown, Asisyai, was born: This thoughtful, gentle, poetic character came into the world drawing on the poetic sadness of Leonid Engibarov's clownery, the refined philosophising of Marcel Marceau's pantomime, and the humanity and comic poignancy of great Chaplin's films. All of these Polunin considers his major teachers.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Asisyai first appeared before an audience of millions of television viewers in the new year's edition of "Light Blue Flame" in 1980-1981, in a sketch with two oversized inflatable telephones. Here for the first time was heard his dialogue on love, on loneliness, on the longing for human understanding, on the bliss of discovery and the bitterness of loss, which to this day accompanies Polunin's hero - and the clown himself - to his audiences in the most diverse corners of our planet.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Originally Asisyai was many-faced and multi-facetted: he could be gentle and na?ve, but ironic the next minute, or puffed up in full-blown conviction, emitting his invincible "Zya!". So the thought arose, that each facet of his character could grow into a separate personage. This is how the idea for a theatre of clowns was born, where each is different from every other, but recognisable and familiar to every single member of the audience. [/FONT]
     
  13. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    At the same time? If he'd done that in Vancouver I'm sure he would have got the gold.
     
  14. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    Maybe he is planning one for Sochi. :D:watch::rofl::2faced:
     
  15. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    LOL:D yeah with both legs at the same time and while holding a beer on one hand.;):rollin:

    I found the vid with bielman (0.55, 2.14) and where Mishin says when he got him he didnt stand out by jumps.
     
  16. skating_sarah11

    skating_sarah11 New Member

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    Reading through this thread, I have a few things to say.

    1. You cannot believe, or trust everything that comes out of a commentators mouth. To say that a commentator said "this person should be ahead by 5 points" is the same as saying "my mom said he should have won". figure skating is an objective sport, people know that getting into it. Not everyone is going to see things the same way as the 1 commentator, or the 9 judges.

    2. Even though they're not supposed to, judges will be preferential. It is human nature to want someone that is likeable to do better. I am not accusing the judges of this, but it could happen. Also, they are judged on on-ice presentation, and Plushenko has a terrible personality, which is reflected in his skating. Lysachek has a great personality, which is also reflected in his skating. Hence the higher marks. People are crazy to think that having a quad should make you win.

    3. Perhaps I am biased because Plushenko is the Mel Gibson (pro DBag) of figure skating, and probably one of the sports most hated people.
     
  17. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    So the sport would be subjective, not objective. :)

    That, I did not know. :confused:
     
  18. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    LOL, firstly, you think he is the most hated person? Try go in any show in any country he participates. Or watch videos of his competitions. And that has nothing to do if I m a fan or not. I m not a fan of Joubert at all for example, but saying he is not having a hell of fans or audience love, would show either I m blind, deaf or have total ignorance of fs the last decade.

    Just for a joke but for his terrible personality, judges had been given him sky marks like a whole lot of years. Why did they overmark him, because they didnt like him?:watch:wow, Imagine the marks if they did like him

    In case you didnt notice, pcs marks were subjectivity is more probable to happen were the same.
    And off topic but this is the most .... analysis I ve ever read.:scream:

    Mel Gibson?:huh: LOL
     
  19. skating_sarah11

    skating_sarah11 New Member

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    Well that... analysis is coming from someone that has skated and been highly involved with skating for 20 years.

    The judges gave him sky-marks for a whole lot of years, most of those years were under the old system where if you had a quad, you were pretty much garunteed a medal. And I didn't say that they over marked him at the Olympics (though maybe they did), I'm saying that Lysacek clearly deserved to win and the judges saw that.

    And yes, he is compareable to Mel Gibson.
     
  20. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Mel Gibson is going too far. It is like a total LOL. People may not like him because he can come off as arrogant or conceited or he is a sore loser to some but just because someone is not liked that doesn't make them a Mel Gibson. Yes I can't go to any english language message board and find more than 2 or 3 fans of Plushenko but its not like he is a Mel Gibson type person!!!
     
  21. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Sorry but the professionalism of the post disappears when your sentence starts like: Plushenko has terrible personality, Lysacek has great personality, unless you know both well and even then that is too subjective to claim judges mark according to that.
    And unless Mel Gibson has a mullet, I miss the comparisson, but it must be a culture difference thing.
    He might be controversial, but most hated is disillussional statement for many reasons that no need to explain, if you have been into skating for the last 20 years, you know skating is outside message boards and internet.
     
  22. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Gotta love the ignore feature. :revenge:
     
  23. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Alexei Urmanov was a lovely skater who unfortunately got hit with unfair criticism because the judges weren't willing to reward Elvis at '94 Olympics with deserving gold. Even Urmanov was surprised to become Olympic champion that year, but in retrospect since Urmanov's career did not flourish afterward, I'm glad he has at least that reward for his wonderful skating talent. I think Kulik and Abt have some similar qualities. In any case, I'll take Abt and his so-called "rough edges" anyday, tho' to me his edges aren't quite that rough. ;)


    But that would mean Abt competing now ... yep I'll take it, hopefully with Abt at full strength without injuries. :swoon: Oh well, guess we have to take them as they come. I'm just grateful to relive some of Abt's best performances on youtube.

    Absolutely!!! :encore:


    Thanks so much for sharing that link. I looked at some of the other parts of the documentary on youtube. Quite interesting to discover more about Plushenko and what has driven his determination to win.


    ITA! No kidding! Mel Gibson ...!? :huh: :rolleyes: :blah:
     
  24. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Strangely the same conversation came up in GS, Savoie's LP in 2001, I think he was a COP genius without knowing it!
     
  25. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    :eek::eek::eek::huh::huh::huh::scream::scream:

    Some of Plushenko´s haters from Japan:lynch:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhgCIV4PY8c&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhgCIV4PY8c&feature=related
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2010
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Or at least, without the judges knowing it! ;)

    Do you have a link to the conversation you mention? Thanks --
     
  27. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    I truly think of Plushy as a Bolshoi type, but rather more as one of the great male character dancers instead of a ballet dancer. Big, masculine, emphatic but nuanced when appropriate-I adore character dancers as much as ballet dancers. Or, maybe more along the lines of Goudonov. See-I can say nice things about Plushy! He is one of the all-time greats, no doubt. Just not too balletic to me. but I'll take a character dancer!

    Agree Abt, Urmanov, and Savoie are more balletic. Interesting article, but I don't think she knows enough about ballet or figure skating to make these statements. Baryshnikov is sort of shorthand for "great Russian male ballet dancer" but within that world are a great number of "great Russian male ballet dancers" as good as Baryshnikov. My Russian ballet friends used to say Baryshnikov defected because Vladimir Vasiliev was breathing down his neck. Having met and watched VV many times, I have to agree. He's the same size as MB but to me much more powerful. Not better, just different.
     
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    What they say makes little sense, though. Vasiliev is 8 years older than Baryshnikov, so if anyone was breathing down the neck of anyone else, it would have been Baryshnikov. Vasiliev was already established as the main Bolshoi choreographer and AD Grigorovich's go-to-guy, and he and his wife, Ekaterina Maximova, with whom he was deeply in love forever, danced all the time in many roles created for them. As a relatively young dancer, he was already partnering two of the greatest Bolshoi ballerinas, Plisetskaya and Ulanova. Vasiliev has always come across as incredibly well-adjusted, very much so in Dominique Delouche's film "Katya et Volodya". Vasiliev was a star before Baryshnikov finished school.

    From the other side, Mariinsky dancers usually don't acknowledge any kind of rivalry with Bolshoi dancers, especially those trained in Moscow, rather than Vaganova Academy. Baryshnikov danced long past the day when Stalin would like a ballerina and his minions would arrange her transfer from St. Petersburg to Moscow. Baryshnikov said that even as a very young Principal (and he had many fans), he would dance two-three ballets a month, and he was hungry for more work and Western choreography, none of which Vasiliev needed.

    Nureyev was the one that seemed to need a rivalry with a dancer who was diametrically opposite, first with Yuri Soloviev (one of my all-time favorites) in the Soviet Union and then with Erik Bruhn after he defected. Nureyev started late and the Mariinsky was far more rigid about emploi. Nureyev was not a prince by physical type. He always sought a rival with pristine, to-the-manner-born physique and technique.
     
  29. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    I can only repeat what people from Russia who were employed by the Vaganova Institute told me, but it is true that the USSR was chok-full of excellent male dancers compared to the West. Baryishnikov had far more opportuinty in the west.....But you bring up some really interesting thoughts. I was very sad to hear about Maximova's recent death. She was one of my all-time favorite ballerinas-what a body! I met her at the Jackson International Competition about 12 years ago. She was so very tiny! Also, I understand that Vasiliev had had an affair with a ballerina while on the film set in Italy for Zeferrelli's "La Traviata." There was a baby son as a result. I've heard this from so many people....

    I never thought of Baryishnikov as a "Prince" type. I thought Don Quixote was his best role. He's so short, and his persona was so boyish. Nureyev is 3" taller, and I think he could carry off the regal roles better. Don't get me wrong-Baryishnikov is immortal! A dancer for the ages. I like Nureyev better, but it's like saying I like chocolate cake better than chocolate cookies.

    Soloviev is one of my all time favorites, too. I wish there was more video of him. He was perhaps the best of them all. Such a shame about his death, too. And another I love so much from that era or close-Marius Liepa! The father-not the pretty son, who was lovely too. So many wonderful dancers from that era....
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    In Russia, he wasn't. He was demi-charactere. But in the West, he could be cast in anything, since his technique was so great, and defection sold like hotcakes in the '70's.

    Oh, yes. His Crassus + Vasiliev's Spartacus = :smokin: