Greatest singles rivalry ever

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Jan 16, 2011.

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Greatest singles skating rivalry

  1. Ito vs Yamaguchi

    3.0%
  2. Slutskaya vs Kwan

    10.3%
  3. Lipinski vs Kwan

    1.2%
  4. Hoffmann vs Cousins

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Orser vs Boitano

    15.2%
  6. Stojko vs Eldredge

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Fratianne vs Poetzsch

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Kim vs Asada

    4.2%
  9. Yagudin vs Plushenko

    57.0%
  10. Witt vs Thomas

    6.1%
  11. Browning vs Petrenko

    0.6%
  12. other (please specify)

    2.4%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    What do you consider the greatest singles skating rivalry ever.

    I actually voted for Yamaguchi vs Ito which wasnt even on the other poll. It is too bad they didnt both skate amateur longer or compete against each in pros more often.
  2. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

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    Yags vs Plush by a mile!
  3. jl

    jl Active Member

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    Yags v Plush too. What other rivalry involved quads, Olympic titles, voodoo and hypnosis, and a 'two wives' quote? :lol:
  4. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    Huh? How was this a great rivalry?

    going by season

    1989 - Ito is a top skater (ending with her WC) Yamaguchi a future hopeful
    1990 - Ito is still on top (though ends up with silver WC medal due to her disastrous paragraph loop) Yamaguchi is still an up and comer (who stumbled badly at the WCs)
    1991 - Yamaguchi in a minor surprise beats an injured Ito
    1992 - Olympics is the one competition where they were real rivals, Ito skips worlds

    Not much meat there.
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The rivalry started in fall 1990 IMO when Yamaguchi pulled off two big fall wins, first beating World Champion Jill Trenary on a 4-3 split to win the Goodwill Games, then in an even bigger upset beating Ito convincingly at Skate America. Then after the 91 Worlds, Ito came back to beat Yamaguchi at Trophee Lalique, but Kristi came back to win the Olympic Gold.

    It moved onto the Pros. Ito upset the by then dominant pro queen Yamaguchi to win the 93/94 World Pros, but Kristi came back to win the Challenge of Champions over Ito. Then the following season Kristi dethroned Ito at the 94/95 World Pros, then later that season at the Challenge of Champions Ito edged out Sato and Yamaguchi by a small margin to win the Challenge of Champions (Sato was 2nd to Ito by .2, and Kristi a further .2 point). I thought the 94/95 Challenge of Champions and even the World Pros was higher caliber of skating by the top women than the World Championships of 95.

    Yamaguchi 94 Challenge of Champions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNB_sx39FXE
    Ito 94 Challenge of Champions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsy50CpgiWM
    Sato 94 Challenge of Champions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhcOoK7eMBU
    Ito 94 World Pros: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca-LiBhdT2E
    Yamaguchi 94 World Pros: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n1SLDVBKIk

    To me it was a good rivalry with lots of back and forth and victories for both and at times (though not always) very high level of skating by both.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2011
  6. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I voted for this one, but I didn't know there was ever voodoo used.. please clarify!
  7. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Tarasova voodooed Mishin and they made out in SLC.
  8. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    :yikes: I did not need that mental image :scream:
  9. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    EWWW
  10. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    I know about the voodoo stuff, but what did their wives say?
    Coud you share the details, please? :D
  11. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Hoffman and Cousins, a rivalry :rofl:

    Cousins never beat Hoffman before 1980 Euros, when Mueller horse traded with Fassi.

    (I always wondered why Fassi was not able to get Lisa Marie Allen to breakthrough. Of course, when Fratianne won figures (such a shock, she must have been good since Frank was a nobody) and had two triples at 1977 Worlds, it really set her up to be the American front runner.)
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2011
  12. matti

    matti Active Member

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    Well, Frank Carroll and Stanislav Zhuk were lovers, weren't they?
  13. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Were they?
  14. ciocio

    ciocio New Member

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    Are you sure it wasn´t Morozov? Or Morozov learnt it from Tarasova?
  15. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Alas, it is not that salacious. There was that famous SLC promo with much drama, Yags saying he hated Plush while Plush looked at the snowy landscape, and Mishin explained that training both Yags and Plush back in the 1990s was like having two wives.

    Another vote for Yagudin and Plushenko, who were miles ahead of the rest of the field and hated each other, making for much :watch:.
  16. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    yes these days that one compliments the other all the time and they play ping pong together it is such a let down, I want back the two wives:lol:
  17. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    Million dollar idea : Big Love on Ice

    You couldn't be more welcome.
  18. ciocio

    ciocio New Member

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    Yeah, fun is gone... no voodoo, hypnosis, etc, I miss their rivalry so much!:(
  19. matti

    matti Active Member

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    Who knows, they might have been... ;) Then again Suzanne Morrow Francis and Elena Tchaikovskaya were also under suspicion, all that arm in arm walking at Lake Placid '80 (in furs).
  20. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Yagudin-Plushenko by a mile
  21. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    They tried to create a Roz vs. Elaine rivalry - never really developed...
  22. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    This time, I vote for Yag vs Plush. More than a simple rivalry since it involved the coach.
  23. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Cousins routinely won the freeskating portion at Worlds?

    Fratianne set herself up as Hamill's heir apparent with her spectacular freeskate at the 76 Nationals. Back the those days there was a natural progression of who would be champion, and Linda was deemed "IT" after Hamill retired. LMA only chance to win was if Linda had a complete melt down in the freeskate, which she almost did at the 80 Nationals.

    When I look back at Fratianne's skating on utube, I think Frank Caroll let her down as a coach. He could have made her into a much, much better and more intersting freeskater after 76.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Cousins was always the best free skater. If he was better in figures he would have dominated the 1978-1980 period completely. And I am pretty sure Cousins beat Hoffmann at the 79 Worlds where he finished 2nd to Hoffmann's 3rd (Kovalev won).
  25. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

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    Yaguin-Plushenko, nothing else even comes close.
  26. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Other - Zayak v. Sumners No question. Plush and Yags come next.
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Zayak and Sumners wasnt that good a rivalry IMO. Sumners upset a splatty Zayak at 82 Nationals, Zayak won Worlds that year where Sumners was 6th and never in contention. Then from there Zayak was a non threat burdened by injuries, weight issues, and lack of support from the USFSA, whereas Sumners rose to the top of the U.S and World until being upset for the Olympic Gold by Witt.
  28. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Mueller used the same magic formula for Hoffman that she used for Annette, but Hoffman was more dominant.

    Linda had tons of field moves, now called transitions, and did her 3t in combination, now called a sequence, with split jumps. Her biggest problems were her back positions in her layback and classic sit spins (her cannon ball sit spin was actually quite good). Also, Linda was not a naturely extroverted performer, or person for that matter, often described as studious and painfully shy.

    Linda could have worked on here weaknesses in Freeskating. However, Annett was really coming on strong in figures and was not that interesting as a freeskater herself, so Linda had to focus on figures.

    You have to also remember that certain aspects of performing were looked down upon in snooty amateur skating at that time and were not expected to be developed until a skater went pro. In fact, Linda's costumes, which are rather simple by today's standards, were compared to Vegas showgirl costumes.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2011
  29. duane

    duane New Member

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    My sentiments exactly. These two were clearly the top dogs of figure skating for 4-5 years, and their less-than-friendly rivalry was exciting!
  30. kia_4EverOnIce

    kia_4EverOnIce New Member

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    Yagudin-Plushenko, no doubt!
  31. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    I lived it in person and it was huge. Really palpable for those around, at Nationals. It even went so far as one skater buying a fur coat to top the one bought by the other skater. One lightening her hair when the other did so. That sort of petty crap. It was an intense 2 years, from '82 Nationals through '84, even though Tiffany Chin was in the mix after '83. And remember that this was pre-internet...lots of venom via snail mail, on-site chatter, etc.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2011
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  32. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Yeah, Yags/Plush for all the reasons mentioned. Plus it went on for several years and extended beyond WC or OG to national champs, Euros, GP finals...
    So, lots of texture to this one with the coaches and the open disdain...

    I had Browning/Petrenko up there, too, because of the longevity of the rivalry but it only came to a head at worlds. Plus it was a pure skating rivalry with no ancilliary drama.
  33. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    She stopped doing that sequence after 77 which disappointed me. I thought Frank and Linda dumbed down her technical content somewhat after that season. She should be ending per LP with at least a 2A-2t from 77 onward, instead she was ending it with a 2 sal and 2t in 79 and 80.

    I think this performance shows what was wrong with Linda's skating back then: lack of connection to the music and I agree about the too introverted part; Dick Button mentioned once that Linda looked down at the ice a lot instead of up and at the audience while skating. The lack of leg extension annoys me the most though, lol. I mean how hard was it to point that toe and extend that free leg when she pushed back? Another thing that annoys me about the Fratianne's choreography was these constant stopping on the toe-picks that she did.

    I do think she would have been a different skater if her main rivals back then didn't consist mainly of Poetzch but also much better free skaters like Biellman and Watanabe, etc.
  34. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Frank never produced a skater with a decent layback. He sent Michelle away for to get a decent layback for the 1999-2000 season. She held onto it for 5-6 competitions then it went bye-bye.

    Watanabe was a Fassi skater that always got shafted in the technical and freeskating portions of the competition, but I think it was more to do with her Japanese Nationality than anything else. Judging was dominated by Euro judges with the US, Can, and Aus as minority players.

    (I actually worry about the future of Mirai's layback. Her back position is great, but her leg position has no attitude in the classic position, which really bothers me since she clearly has the flexibility in her hips.)
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2011
  35. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    yag/ plush for the soap opera of it, Mishin´s two wives, Yags the we kinda hate each other and Plush the NAthing
  36. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think the 77-80 period was probably the weakest quadrennnial ever in womens skating. Depending on your definition Linda was perhaps the best of a mediocre lot (Poetzsch was if you go by titles, Biellmann was if you go by best free skater). Watching Linda at the 76 Nationals though I would have thought "Wow what an incredibly talented young skater, she is going to be something else." Considering what she looked like then, she turned out to be a dissapointment IMO. I have a feeling if figures did not exist it would have been a great and very enjoyable quadrennial, but Fratianne vs Poetzsch vs Lurz at the top wasnt very appealing.

    It is amazing to see how things turn out compared to how predicted 4 years earlier though.

    In 1980 for example it looked like Wainmann, Zayak, Biellmann, and Witt would be in a battle royale for the 84 Olympics Gold. Instead 2 of those 4 were retired, one came 3rd at her own Nationals and 6th at the Games despite her best efforts. And who would have predicted in 1980 Rosalynn Sumners (who probably nobody had heard of in 1984 but who was already older than 3 of those 4) would enter the 84 Olympics as the favorite for the gold, although she obviously ended up being losing it to Witt.

    In 1976 it looked like 12 year old phenom Voderezova would be a medalist, maybe even a gold medalist, at the 1980 Olympics. Instead she wasnt even there.

    In 1984 it looked like Tiffany Chin was the early favorite for the 88 Olympic Gold. Instead she retired before Calgary since she had dropped to being the #4 American and had little hope of making the team. She would win no major title other than a single U.S title. And who would have ever imagined Witt hanging on for 4 more years to win again, and dominating almost that whole span.

    In 1988 it probably always wasnt predicted two skaters who finished 10th and 12th at the 88 U.S Senior Nationals would win gold and bronze at the 92 Olympics.

    And who would have predicted Arakawa in 2002 to win the 2006 Olympics. :lol:
  37. Beefcake

    Beefcake Guest

    Sigh, the required alignment of the required "great rivalry" aspects ...

    :) greatness
    :) importance
    :) equality
    :) multiple seasons ...

    is tough tough tough to achieve.

    Leaves slim pickings. Plush v. Yags is the easy choice here, though the Brians did battle well ... and did provide the best-ever Olympics mano a mano.

    I wish that Yu-na and Mao would've (/ can still) become a great rivalry.
  38. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Oh, yeah. I forgot about Lurz. She probably deserved to beat Annette a few times in figures and was armed with 3Lp. Too bad her freeskating was so slow that you would think she was going to fall over. She was always dropped in the sp and lp but consistently got 3rd place.

    She was the other reason Linda focused on figures. Lurz wedged herself above Linda in figures, but was often below Annette.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  39. myhoneyhoney

    myhoneyhoney Well-Known Member

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    Yags & Plush = WHEEEEEEEEE! They got my vote.
  40. Zokko!

    Zokko! Comansnala?

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    Yags & Plush = Loren & Lollobrigida of figure skating! All the drama, intense and personal, and what a "fun" for skating (movie) lovers to watch! :swoon: And they still hate each other, well, at least L & L. ;)