Grand Prix Assignments - 2013/14 Olympic Season

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

    3,829
    729
    113
    come on.
    zhang won an international medal in one season ago against great competition and showed she could be back on track.

    she had a difficult last season after that peak in the early competitions but was kinda robbed at us nactionals with strange downgrades on her jump combinations.

    i wouldn't have been surprised if the us would have picked some others, but i'm totally okay with zhang. she showed some great fighting spirit in the past and should get het final chance for a spot. if she's on, she could be great.
     
  2. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

    2,667
    159
    0
    Caroline has so many issues with her skating, the audience boo'ed her at Nationals.
     
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,478
    4,859
    113
    Please disregard my earlier wrong reply and read kwanfan1818's posts #145 & 148 above instead.

    I think Donlan/Speroff are likely to get a Senior B opportunity this fall. It's a good sign that they are starting their season so early (competing their new SP tomorrow in Fort Wayne, Indiana).
     
  4. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

    7,139
    313
    83
    I really hope Samantha Cesario gets that host spot at Skate America. She has earned it.
     
  5. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    2,039
    468
    83
    Very true but Mao was a technically superior skater who was capable of out-jumping everyone in the senior field that year so it made standing out and beating everyone much easier.

    I'd love to see some of the newer girls coming in but I honestly don't feel as though the judges will pay any attention to them this year. Flying under the radar is good sometimes though, so who knows. I think the reason most of the US girls stayed junior is b/c there are so few spots for them on the senior level...just look at the GP assignments. Are any of the debuting US seniors getting a GP this year?
     
  6. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    3,340
    813
    113
    I think you are right. At the time when Mao defeated the whole field at GP while she was not fully senior eligible, the judging was very different. I feel that now the youngsters would be held down on the PCS and the veterans sometimes held up, so getting through is not easy.
     
  7. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

    2,201
    505
    113
    Really? I was booing at home watching it on tv but that was because of her marks, not because of her skating.
     
  8. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

    3,829
    729
    113
    there was no booing against caroline, there was booing about the low scores and the marked downgrades.

    caroline is liked by the american audiences, she got standing ovationas 2012 for her great programs and people would like to see her abck on track and acknowledge her efforts. many of other skaters would have given up a thousand times.
     
  9. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    14,555
    2,437
    113
    As was I. Caroline's marks were ridiculously low.
     
  10. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,857
    3,745
    113
    None of the debuting US seniors came in as junior world champions/medalists or and/or dominant at JGP, like Nagasu, Wagner, Zhang, Flatt, Gold, Zawadzki, and Emily Hughes, and Jenny Kirk before them. Gao made JGPF two seasons in a row. Liang is an exception who leveraged early GP success into many GP invites, only once as a host pick. That was a different era, though, with larger fields and different selection criteria.

    The two junior Russian Ladies moving up to seniors with GP slots are Radionova, who won every international competition she entered last season, and junior world and JGP bronze medalist Pogorilaya.
     
  11. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,478
    4,859
    113
    Thanks! I'm easily :confused: re. the wording of many ISU documents.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,478
    4,859
    113
    I'm pretty sure PolymerBob was being facetious in his post.
    Do you mean Polina Edmunds? She will make her JGP debut this fall, along with U.S. Jr. silver medalist Mariah Bell. Jr. bronze medalist Barbie Long is staying Jr. in the U.S. and will return to the JGP.
     
  13. NMURA

    NMURA Member

    408
    24
    18
    Zhang was picked over Cesario because she has no chance to be chosen by other federations. Cesario has relatively high SB and she is likely to be invited if a WD happens somewhere. The US can give her the TBA spots later. If they give her the spot initially, other federations will not invite her. It is very rare that a skater with no guaranteed spot could get two spots even when there were more spots.
     
  14. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

    3,981
    1,171
    113
    The minimum technical score is new this season. The new announcement hasn't been published yet. It should contain the information on the minimum technical score once it is out.
     
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,857
    3,745
    113
    This is by no means guaranteed: last season Nagasu, who was 11th on the SB list, was bypassed repeatedly for a spot off the alternates list -- four times at CoC because she was already assigned there, but five times at TEB -- as Jenna McCorkell (No. 46 SB), Joshi Helgesson (No. 37 SB/No. 17 WS), Elena Glebova (No. 44 SB), Christina Gao (No. 30 SB and guaranteed no spots), and Zijun Li (No. 24 SB) were all chosen ahead of her.

    This season, every senior in the Top 24 SB received two in the initial selection, as did 25 (Leonova) and 26 (V. Helgesson). If Keiser is still Junior, Cesario will be in the first alternates group, with Imai, Popova, Zhang, and Lacoste. If she is not chosen, Gosviani will take the vacated spot, because, by practice, they don't require the entire first group of five to be selected (if possible) before replacing them with someone even lower and, presumably, someone who will be less competition for their own skaters.

    In the past, the French Fed waiting until later than the end of summer to fill the TBA's, but I just realized last year, they filled them by 4 September, along with the other Federations, and then changed them based on their own internal competitions and monitoring. The only way this strategy would work is if skaters announce their withdrawal before the August deadline to confirm entry. In the Olympic season, it's less likely for skaters to withdraw for anything but injury or a big emergency, and there are no "Comeback" skaters like Ando, who will decide to change their minds. It's much more likely that USFS will have to fill the TBA before any other host replaces someone in their event.

    It is rare, but not impossible, especially for Pairs and for skaters from host nations.

    Technically, the way the rules are written in last season's GP Announcement, Returning Split Couple"s (7-12 at past Worlds with a different partner) aren't guaranteed a spot, but may be considered for a host spot and another Federation pick. It also says that their best score with their last partner is slotted in the SB list, and it's possible that any guaranteed spot is from being Top 24. (What seems to be clear is that they don't push anyone else out of the Top 24 SB list.) If they have one in the initial selection, they are put at the top of the alternates list, though, and in past practice, at least, aren't put in the groups of five and have to be offered spots for which they are eligible before the hosts go to the Top 25-75 SB.

    Similar rules apply to "Returning Skaters" (7-12 at past Worlds), except their previous SB is slotted into the SB list: they are not guaranteed any, and they're at the bottom of the alternates list. "Comeback skaters," (1-6 at past Worlds) must commit to two, and are given "priority" for two, but they're not guaranteed any on paper, although they get two in practice.

    Jr. Worlds medalists and JGPF champions are eligible for selection, but not guaranteed anything for those placements; however, in almost all circumstances, they'd be guaranteed one for a Top 24 SB.

    The Split Couples (1-6 at past Worlds with prior partner) aren't even listed in last year's GP Announcement. Last year, Yankowskas/Reagan only got one selection initially for Cup of China, but they also didn't get a host spot, like Peng/Zhang did. (They were later given one from the alternates list, replacing Marley/Brubaker at NHK after their split and later withdrawing themselves.)

    Last season,

    Pairs:
    Castelli/Shnapir, who were guaranteed none, were assigned to NHK in the initial selection and then were assigned to Skate America in mid-August. I know that Pairs is a different kettle of fish -- there were no alternates left last season -- but C/S got two early. Popova/Massot were assigned a host spot in the initial selection and then Skate Canada at the beginning of December, when Skate Canada returned a host spot to the pool. Martyusheva/Rogonov weren't even on the SB list and were assigned to a host spot at the beginning of September; they later were assigned to NHK trophy in place of Sui/Han.

    Men: Voronov was assigned to NHK in the initial selection, and then in mid-July replaced Contesti at CoC. He wasn't guaranteed any, but got two non-host spots. He, like Cesario, was at the top of the Top 25-75 without two. However, his coach is Morozov, and there wasn't a huge amount of internal competition. Men had only eight GP slots in total last year; US Ladies already have 12 of 60 slots, Cesario's coach isn't well-known, and she's behind the Ladies selected in results (except for Zhang) and experience (including Zhang).

    Ladies: Gao wasn't guaranteed any; she was assigned to Skate America in the initial selection, and then was assigned to TEB as a replacement on 10 August. (I think she replaced Zijun Li who replaced Carolina Kostner.)

    Dance: None.

    I think kwanatic meant the US Ladies who were junior last season but are turning senior this year, like Cesario. The answer is no to date, with the Skate America TBA still open.

    ETA:
    I was referring to the paragraph Sylvia quoted about the valid competitions/years in which to make the GP minimum, which is a percentage of the total score from last season.

    Do you mean that the will have a total minimum TES score, or individual TES program scores?

    It's clear from the preview that they said either a GP Minimum Total Score or or a (new) GP minimum technical score. It would be a change to allow the skaters to earn either GP minimum at last year's early Senior B's, not just this year's early Senior B's. If they're allowing last season's Senior B scores to count towards the minimums, why limit this to early season Senior B's?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  16. icellist

    icellist Member

    421
    25
    18
    I don't remember if Gao was an alternate for the GPs. I thought she had received 2 GPs early in selections. Kexin Zhang who was seeded for 2 GP slots based on her performance for 2012 Worlds withdrew from TEB as well as Carolina Kostner and injured Yretha Silete. Zijun Li had CoC and NHK for the 2012 GPs. Of the three who withdrew, I think Elena Glebova, Jenna McCorkell and Polina Korobeynikova were assigned to TEB. (Once again this is on the top of my head). I just remembered 2012 TEB to have a killer field before it became kind of mediocre.
     
  17. icellist

    icellist Member

    421
    25
    18
    I don't remember if Gao was an alternate for the GPs. I thought she had received 2 GPs early in selections. Kexin Zhang who was seeded for 2 GP slots based on her performance for 2012 Worlds withdrew from TEB as well as Carolina Kostner and injured Yretha Silete. Zijun Li had CoC and NHK for the 2012 GPs. Of the three who withdrew, I think Elena Glebova, Jenna McCorkell and Polina Korobeynikova were assigned to TEB. (Once again this is on the top of my head). I just remembered 2012 TEB to have a killer field before it became kind of mediocre.
     
  18. NMURA

    NMURA Member

    408
    24
    18
    In this comming Olympic season, the number of WD will be less than last year. It is unlikely that WDs from motivational reasons happen (like Kostner, Ando). Gao was just lucky in this sense.

    I guess Nagasu was ignored by France because they expected that Czisny's spot at NHK trophy will open up sooner or later, and Japan is more than happy to invite her. There is a possibility that the USFSA had offered some deals to France (for example, paying the bills of travel expenses). As a circumstantial evidence, Russia invited 3 US skaters with one guaranteed spot (Zhang Zawadzki Dornbush) without plausible returns. They had met only one of WS or SB criteria. As a result, they could save the TBA for Flatt and some US men. The only non-US skater who fulfilled only one condition and still could receive 2 overseas spots (initially) was Machida. Probably the US and Japan have traded Dornbush and Machida.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,857
    3,745
    113
    Gao was not given two in the initial selections. Any skater/team assigned to a slot after the initial section, except for host TBA's and replacement from the host country for host withdrawals are taken from the alternates list, even if they happen the day after the initial selection, and they're subject to the alternates list rules, except when they aren't.

    Gao appears only as a host pick for Skate America on the May 21, 2012 grid of initial selections. On the August 2 grid, Carolina Kostner was crossed out of TEB (and CoC). On the August 8, 2012 grid, Zijun Li was added and listed as "new." On the August 9, 2012 grid, Li was removed, one spot was left blank, and only nine Ladies were listed. On the August 10, 2012 grid, Christina Gao was added and listed as "new." (The total was left at "9.")

    Gao was No 30 on the SB list and 4th-ranked senior among the skaters who received one, not counting Czisny who requested one, and that put her in the first group of five. Two skaters were selected before her (Korpi for China, where Nagasu was already assigned, and Li) and both were in the Top 24 SB list, chosen for one each while Zawadzki and Marchei (no host picks) and Imai outside the Top 24 SB were chosen for two initially.

    Gao had 11 chances to be lucky last season.
     
  20. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    9,098
    632
    113
    To be honest I don't know who I'd give the spot to, Hicks or Cesario (if Wang/Miller stay jr as people thought). Their last season was pretty similar internationally.

    I'd say skateoff.
     
  21. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,857
    3,745
    113
    The roster isn't up yet for Salt Lake City, but it could be used as a skateoff for the final spot. Last year there was no need, as Flatt, Gao, and Wagner were assigned to SA in the May initial selection. Gold and Zawadzki, who competed at USIC 2012, were already assigned to two GP's each.

    Last year there were two Ladies, two Dance, four Men, and three Pairs for the US. Without knowing what the championship TES minimums for next year are yet, we won't know who needs to attend a Senior B to qualify for championships.
     
  22. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    9,098
    632
    113
    Thanks

    I hope Hicks gets a GP so some of the jr ladies last year won't get crowded out of jgp. I counted 10 girls who could be in jgp again if no one goes senior (Hicks, Siraj, Wang, Miller, Edmunds, Chen, Long, Bell, Lam and Keiser)

    Anyway, some JGPs may be as tough as GP if the Russian ladies and Kato from Japan all get assigned to one.
     
  23. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

    2,201
    505
    113
    Oh. Whew!
     
  24. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

    2,667
    159
    0
    The striking thing is that the judges were boo'ed after some pretty serious applause for Caroline. It's like they were watching different things.
     
  25. Fudove

    Fudove Member

    39
    5
    8
    The buzz here in California is that Caroline has improved, working like a dog and developed a humble acceptance to critics' assessments. No one here was surprised that she got SA but it was a surprise that she was announced so early. I can say that it confuses me if she was promoted to Team C from "no team" and awarded a Grand Prix for hard work (deserved) why not just promote her to Team B like they did Ricky Dornbush? If USFS's arbitral promotion to him up to TEAM B from Team C why not Caroline too? She deserves it. Maybe all Grand Prix skaters get Team B?
     
  26. coolboogie22

    coolboogie22 New Member

    11
    0
    0
    Why not giving an other spot to Joelle Forte at Skate America 2013 ?

    I enjoy this skater at her first appearence, and she was deserving the bronze medal at Skate America 2011.

    She was more lovely and enjoyable than Cesario and Hicks.
     
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,478
    4,859
    113
  28. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    9,098
    632
    113
    I think Dornbush qualified for team C and Caroline probably in reserve but I guess additional considerations bumped them up a level each

    ETA: Oh, Sylvia answered already
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  29. Fudove

    Fudove Member

    39
    5
    8
    I did not realize that skaters could be promoted without having the criteria results. Fingers crossed for a few not listed. Can more athletes be added to the US Teams?
     
  30. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

    1,254
    185
    63
    Skimmed the assignments...here are a few thoughts on the ladies.

    I have no problem with Caroline Zhang getting the Skate America spot. I think she was harshly marked at Skate America and she's already proven that with hard work come results. Her speed *has* improved, btw.

    Ditto with Amelia Lacoste. I've been a Lacoste hater in the past, but like Zhang I think she got a grasp on the 3F and her basics aren't bad at all. She just needs to stick to jump content she can handle, like 3F, 3Lo+2Lo, 2A in the short, instead of something ridiculous like 3Lz, 3Lo+3Lo, 2A.

    Unfortunately, I think Haruka Imai has been slipping season by season. I think she's one of the more musical Japanese skaters, but her jump consistency has been absent. It's great that she can tack a 3T onto anything, but she needs to actually land the first jump.

    As for Satoko Miyahara, small, underrotated jumps and poor ice coverage will really hurt her in seniors. I don't know much about her growth spurt, but those are never easy to adjust to, especially in a few months. I hope they give her good programs, instead of cutesy ones. I wasn't a fan of Mao Asada's programs when she debuted as a senior, but at least she had the jumps and skating skills to back it up.

    Samantha Cesario has many lovely qualities (she was the most "senior" looking of the U.S. junior world team) and has an outside shot at the Olympic team in my opinion, over the likes of Hannah Miller (who is lovely, but should benefit from staying in the JGP).