Gracie To Frank Carroll?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by FSfan107, Sep 14, 2013.

  1. peibeck

    peibeck Letting Poje be on top

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    No, I don't mean that at all. That's why I said it would not be a big change if she moves to Frank.
     
  2. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Phillip Mills? Look what he did for Ashley.
     
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  3. Dilng

    Dilng Well-Known Member

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    I don't like the music at all, but then I was never a fan of Gershwin. I do think that it's a good move to go to Frank. He will smooth out the rough spots and hopefully get her new music. It certainly can't hurt her to move to him. She has all the technical abilities to be a great skater, the work ethic and talent she just needs someone to help with the confidence and fine tune her programs and Frank would be perfect for her. She is a lot more artistic then Timothy ever was and Frank was able to help him get an Olympic bronze medal so who knows what he can do with Gracie.
     
  4. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    Don't you guys think it's a little odd to look at reasons why the change is a poor decision as opposed to why it might be a fabulous one? Also, why wouldn't the obvious reaction be that something must not have been working in her old situation so of COURSE she switched coaches.

    Frank Carrol in my mind does not make immense drastic changes right away in a skater say the way Tarasova would. He does a terrific job at ironing out the details, providing structure and emotionally giving his pupils what they need. How do we know that Gracie felt more pressure living up to the expectations of her coaching team than she could deal with?

    As far as the program goes, for all the pissing and moaning I hear about skaters not using novel concepts, her choreography and music are as far away from "warhorse" as possible. She has been transparent about how cognizant she is regarding her shortcomings in her skating... I guess I just didn't expect all the jabs at her that I am reading. While I respect her, personally, I am emotionally invested as a fan into Alissa ( watcher her practice recently and it actually inspired me to work harder in my own job), Mirai, Caroline and Ashley but I still respect Gracie's abilities.

    One thing that Franks does seem to advocate is his skaters having positive attitudes and great sportsmanship. Hopefully this will be evident while on camera. :)
     
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  5. mtnskater

    mtnskater Well-Known Member

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    I spoke with Gracie this morning while here at Challenge Skate...just as a fan. She was very sweet and easy to talk to. I told her I was rooting for her to make the Olympic Team and she said "That is my dream." I say more power to her. I love that she wants to improve and is doing what it takes and trying as hard as she can to get an Olympic spot. I would like to see more US ladies with this type of drive to improve and succeed. I've been watching Gracie in practice and competition here and she has definitely improved her presentation from last year in such a short time. Her arms and shoulders are better, as are her extensions on her spiral. She is not skating so square and I am seeing more torso twist? Her jumps still look very good. I have seen a number of perfect triple lutz/triple toe combos and her 2 axel/3toe combo. Spins are great as is her speed. It has to be hard to be competing here without her coach and being in transition, so far she is doing pretty well here.
     
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  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I didn't find Carolina to be musical at all, until the last 2-3 years. She was essentially a jumping bean who skated very fast and very inconsistently. The Carolina we are seeing now (after the 2010 Olympics) is a skater who has reinvented herself as an artist.
     
  7. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the report. :) I like that she wants to improve too. I hope she ends up with Frank.
     
  8. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Not only that Carolina is over 8 years older then Gracie and didn't become a complete skater until she was like 24 years old. Gracie has time.
     
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of staying off-topic with Kostner, I think Kostner always had potential. However, she was always sort of frantic, messy with her movement, seemed almost uncoordinated, and never really knew how to truly feel the music of her routines. Kostner definitely had moments, but nobody really taught her how to move properly. For me, her 2005-2006 LP to Vivaldi's Winter shows it. That program had loads of potential, but Kostner never looked really comfortable with it.

    It was not until, IMO, 2007 with that great Canon SP where I saw her real potential. However, it floundered with her skating troubles. I think after two horrible seasons (2009 and 2010), Kostner somehow reinvented herself. I don't know if it was Michael Huth (who was her original coach before she moved around), Lori Nichol (who choreographed for her in the past), Kostner herself, or all three of them, but somehow she figured out how to control her movements, control her speed, show an ability to change tempo, and actually take time to really let the music and her skating meld. What has happened in the past few seasons has been incredible and it really changed my opinion and perspective on Kostner. Now, with Akiko Suzuki, Kostner is my favorite skater this past Olympic cycle. That is something I thought would never happen (especially after the 2008 World Championships).

    OT, but regarding the vast majority of Nichol programs being duds. I think it's bound to happen when someone has as many clients as Nichol. Like any choreographer (or artist), over-work can lead to uninspired efforts. However, once you get a muse or a skater who can execute your work, real magic happens. Also, sometimes people go through ruts. We know Nichol sees herself as an artist and likes to think she creates great work for her skaters and, IMO, she's capable of doing it. She may have years where she hasn't produced anything too great, but then she may go through a period where she's producing a lot of great work. It's sort of like movie directors who've been in the game for a long time. Sometimes they go through a period of one bad film after another, and then they get that one great film and get back into the award circuits. People then forget about the bad periods.

    As for Frank Carroll and the straight-line technique . . . well, his skaters have been successful with it. I think Frank knows a lot about skating technique and he certainly knows how COP works. It's admirable how adaptable Frank Carroll has been this late in the game. Also, he may have "failed" being a supportive coach at times, but we have seen him succeed. I think every long-time coach on all levels have had times where it seems they made the wrong decision to be supportive or "hard". It's part of the job, and sometimes people have lapses in judgment. Sometimes skaters work better with certain types of coaches, and maybe Gracie wants to tow a harder line with Frank. We know Mirai probably didn't do well with it, but we know Carroll has had successes with skaters so some skaters thrive in that environment.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  10. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Carolina had the advantage that she was skating in a country in which she had very little, if any, competition. Gracie does not have that advantage. She will soon have other skaters nipping at her heels and she needs to bring it together asap. Carolina didn't have that kind of pressure. Even when she backslid she knew she would probably be top dog in Italy.
     
  11. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    True. Kostner after her disasters at Worlds and the Olympics in 2009-2010 would have been done if she was skating for the US or Japan.
     
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Posted on IFS' FB page tonight: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152217051807538&id=278550292537
     
  13. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Gracie needs to get this coaching situation figured really quickly. This is not good not having a coach in an Olympic year and the season is already started. I'm not sure what she's thinking but the timing is horrible.
     
  14. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Well-Known Member

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    It's Brian Orser and Doug Leigh. Uschi Keszler was his choreographer.

    They went back to Jamie's old coach -- a familiar face for them, if you will.

    I don't think Meryl would be too pleased with Fedor if such a thing were to happen. ;)
     
  15. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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  16. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Sarah Hughes win her junior championship under a different head coach? And how long was Baiul really with Galina? Only in skating would 4 years, or so, be considered a long coaching relationship. :lol:
     
  17. analia

    analia Active Member

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    I don't see how one can compare Gracie to Kostner. Carolina always had great musicality, which I could only assume came from Italian classical music education. Gracie, despite her princess face, is as much a power skater as Rachael Flatt, and her team was mistaken to think they can package her into a beauty skater. She will do so much better with spunky music like her Chicago exhibition program this year. This is a down-to-earth American girl who grew up listening to Taylor Swift and uses "I got to" way too often. How do one believe she would understand Tchaikovsky? Of course musicality can be drilled into a skater, but I'm guessing Mirai's Carmen was as good as drilling could get.

    That being said, Gracie Gold is still going to make the Olympics, and she is never going to be a well-rounded beauty skater with high PCS. So yes, she needs all the politiking power from a coach she can get.
     
  18. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Not if Carolina changed her last name to Czisny. :shuffle:
     
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  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    And Phillips Mills isn't doing Wagner's choreography anymore, so he's free.
     
  20. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    Meryl has already fulfilled her duties to the Zuoeva Fedoration in the grand tradition of Tanith and Tessa. Now Gracie must do so, if she wants a medal.
     
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  21. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2013/09/14/60651560

    Per this article and to my point in my earlier post, people should assume the situation is broken if a skater makes a drastic move like this. I hope this really works for Gracie. If not right away then in the future. One thing about Frank is that at this point in his career, I am sure he learns something new all the time but coaching a elite female is a situation he's very familiar with. Gracie sounds like she was imploding and was forced into a change. I am glad she listened to her inner voice and made the switch. She's perhaps in the best situation in that she does not need major overhauls to her jumping. She's the best candidate for such a switch.
     
  22. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I agree. The Carolina I've watched all these years has never been as musically unconscious or as choreographically unfinished as Gracie Gold. Kostner has always used her body to express music well in the non-jump elements of her program. Yes, she used to have a bad habit of telegraphing her jumps, particularly the 3flip jump, but in her later years, she disguises her jumps much better and in her later years, she also controls her speed much better. I agree with you that no one should be trying to transform Gold into a pwetty pwetty princess. She skates similarly in style to Rachael Flatt or Emily Hughes, so I'm thinking selections like "Carmina Burina" and "Firebird" could work better for her.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  23. 4rkidz

    4rkidz plotting, planning and travelling

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    I think technically Gracie is an excellent skater.. However her artistic side is impacted by her confidence issues an her mental strength issues.. She reminds me of Josie Chouinard a technically superb skater eaten up by her nerves.. I do think Gracie has lots of artistry but we have not seen it because she is so focused on her elements that she can't let go an just feel the music.. If you want to see if a skater has some artistry look at their exhibitions .. Frank might be a good idea if it helps her confidence .. Can't blame the changes it is an important year!
     
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  24. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:
    That's my suspicion, too.

    Wishing her the best of luck whatever the outcome.
     
  25. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I watched Gracie's SP and LP from the competition this weekend on youtube.

    I have to say that I didn't find either the content or the style of either as egregious as has been suggested by other posts in various threads. I was bracing myself! She did do 3 triples and a 3-jump combo at the end. Yeah. Nowhere near perfect but I remember Kwan doing 4 triples in her LP at '01 GWG getting beaten handily by Slutskaya en route to the Olympics in '02. It's also obvious she has worked on her components. I don't find the arms all that bad (although she may want to tone it down), right off the bat though, I would start by scrapping the pwetty pink costume and go for a color that emphasizes power and control if 'Power Witch' is what she is indeed going for.

    And I believe there have been comparisons to Gracie/FC and Mirai/FC teamings. If at happens, Gracie would come to FC with (1) good basic technique; (2) a commitment to work on components even if they are not perfect at this point; and (3) a somewhat ambitious attitude. Categories (1) and (3) were lacking with Mirai, so I think it could work based on that alone.

    What I AM worried about is the drastic change so close to the start of a competitive Olympic season and not even being sure this is what she wants (giving FC a 1-week tryout?). Dangerous territory to not have a solid team picked and ready at this point where you will be facing the likes of Yu Na, Mao, Carolina, baby Russians competing in their home country at the Olympics. I really hope that she has a back-up coach ready to go if the FC tryout doesn't work out and it will be a big problem if it doesn't work out without a fallback plan.
     
  26. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Says she needs a coach who can help her control her emotions. Better to see a sports psychologist for that for maximum help. In the end though, only she can do that.

    Carol Heiss would probably work for her.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  27. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Some skaters never get their emotions under control. Just look at Alissa and Mirai. I think if Gracie makes the Olympic team with all that is going on it will be a successful year. At this point with no coach she's behind the other skaters who have stable coaching situations. I'm not expecting a lot from her right now to tell you the truth.
     
  28. rhumba

    rhumba New Member

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    I am glad she made a coach change. She definitely needs new choreography, however, not sure if she has time for her GP season.....wish her the best.
     
  29. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    After a few viewings, I find myself surprised by how much I like the choreography and packaging for her, even if it is not what I imagined would be good for her. It is indeed pretty princess (I don't see a power witch anywhere in there, maybe a 'power princess' :lol:) . There are moments where she pullls it off, and the sweeping music of Sleeping Beauty really does match the power and flow of her skating. It's a stretch for her, but certainly a big improvement over the universally panned boob shimmy and marching she had last season. I'm hopeful she pulls it off.


    Has Carol Heiss ever worked for anyone at this level? We don't need another Kwiatowski, we've already got Zawadski filling that spot.
     
  30. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I think Gracie's style is interesting. It is "busy", but not bad, and something I more expect from Eastern Bloc coaches or skaters, which usually have either empty programs or very full programs. The arm thing everybody is complaining about looks like something Miki Ando was given by Morozov.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013